The Choice

Discussion in 'The Pipe' started by Springfield, Aug 29, 2010.

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  1. Aug 29, 2010 #1

    Springfield

    Springfield

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    As I understand it from talking to a union rep, the choice is NOT between pursuing One List or caving on scope. Akin has said, and the union believes him, that Skywest will back out of the deal if we choose to pursue one list with the Skywest pilots.

    Therefore, the choices are go it alone, the way we have been (and even then maybe have someone else try to buy us), or take the merger with ASA along with some substantial, but probably not air-tight job protections. Going to court to uphold our scope provisions IS NOT AN OPTION.

    I previously thought that Akin would not have entered the deal unless he thought he could live with the worst outcome, which for him is One List including Skywest. But I haven't talked to him, and those who have and have more experience in this than I do, like ALPA staff lawyers, think he's not bluffing about backing out.

    So consider whether you want more of the same that we've had for the last eight months, which wasn't fun and might be getting worse and not better, or if you prefer short term stability, with a risk that SKYW management acts in bad faith and they are able to screw us a few years down the line.

    So, unless you have information or insight that the union reps do not have access to, can we stop discussing and demanding One List?
     
  2. Aug 29, 2010 #2

    Greg Stone

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    I disagree.

    There is not going to be more of the same for any length of time and we will not be going it alone. XJT will not be a going concern for much longer. Whether this deal goes through matters not as far as that is concerned.

    That is not to say that there is not a choice to be made. I just disagree on what the above choices are and I don't believe that all of us have been presented with the full range of data yet to make a decision. I suspect that some have. But not all of us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  3. Aug 30, 2010 #3

    xkuzme1

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    I dont think he is bluffing. There are a lot of airlines out there to purchase right now. He could buy Mesa and Comair and still pull a long term deal out of his *** with UniCal when XJT's contract comes up. Both Comair and Mesa (more than most likely) have a lot friendlier contracts than ours does and most of those guys are amazed that they STILL have a job.

    I think playing a game of poker when you have a worse hand than the other guy, then raising the stakes is a poor strategy. I think merging with ASA, getting a no furlough clause, guaranteed growth, and substantial raise contract would make SKWY vote ALPA in tomorrow. Then a full on merger might happen because we played the hand the best way we could.

    I want one list, but do we force a one list scenario pre merger and ruin all chances, or... do we play our hand the best we can and use our sheer numbers to raise the stakes when Jerry's hand isn't as good as ours.

    X
     
  4. Aug 30, 2010 #4

    Texan Aviator

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    In my mind, I've already kinda accepted we're merging with ASA only. We had better not get PBS or lose our vacation though. Granted there is a LOT that needs to be negotiated.. That is very important to us though.
     
  5. Sep 1, 2010 #5

    lap

    lap

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    Well, when you only have one chip left on the table, there is not much to lose anyways. As for SKW going ALPA later, that does not guarantee one list.
     
  6. Sep 1, 2010 #6

    Springfield

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    But we don't have just one chip on the table; from your analogy you're implying that we have almost nothing to lose. In fact, depending on what you think would have happened if SKYW hadn't come along, we each may be betting (worst case) our jobs and all of our airline seniority on this. For old farts like me with kids to feed, that's a lot. For single FOs, it's maybe not as much, as long as you enjoy living with your Mom (and try getting hired by Southwest once your currency lapses).

    Again, my point is not to suggest that we must give in or the sky will fall, but to inject a little realism into the calls for "One List" You are right, btw, that SKYW going ALPA is no assurance of a single list down the line.
     
  7. Sep 1, 2010 #7

    Springfield

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    Greg, then what do you think are the real choices? Did I overlook something, or just gloss over a potential worst case financial outcome for XJT in a go-it-alone scenario?
     
  8. Sep 1, 2010 #8

    Unverified

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    What choice(s)? Guys, we just don't know yet. The last that I heard, it's bad (no one list)... But not as bad as we have been thinking that it will be. Again, this is what I heard, but I asked a lot of pointed questions when I cornered the union guys. After going to the union meeting Friday, I can honestly say that they guys have a pretty good handle on things. I never thought that I would say this... But I have confidence in our current leadership in THIS case.

    I don't know whats worse... All the speculation, or lack of official information. :(

    Try to chill a little in the mean time.

    [video=youtube;rSjK2Oqrgic]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic[/video]
     
  9. Sep 1, 2010 #9

    lap

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    Yeah, I'm an old guy with little ones. I know this is just me but either way, I will be fine because I've been working on a back up plan in another field. If I'm out of this job, I'm out so seniority doesn't mean much to me outside of XJT. I have a couple of problems though when us regional pilots bash the mainline pilots for not falling on their swords and conceding on their scope on threat of bankruptcy yet when its our turn, we don't just say one list or nothing. I just want the contract that I'm working under enforced. I wont be part of this whipsaw unless we are forced upon it by an arbitrator or we vote collectively on it, or if the MEC shoves this down our throats rather than trying to enforce our contract.
     
  10. Sep 1, 2010 #10

    Guardguy

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    I want one list but at some point you gotta face the facts, JR was pretty honest with us on some of those calls, when you hit $60 million in cash on hand your are going to be forced to go bankrupt by the major investors. We are at $90 million, so at current lose rates that is 8 months away. Reality is Reality, LK won, sucks but true. We have a very big unknown here, wether our language is good and can be defended in court, which if it is leads to our bankruptcy after SKY walks and then CAL offers them the leases on our jets and we get pref interviews (which all the burn it downs will be first in line for), or we use our leverage and the unknown about this language to get what we can to merge with ASA, face it SKY pilots don't want us, they are openly hostel towards us, so f them, lets use what we got to get what we can and then hope they see our "industry leading contract" make them see the reality, that another cut in their health care is going to help pay for it. I am over burn it to the ground, it has never worked in this industry, someone just picks up the pieces and does it with worse pay and worse work rules!!!
     
  11. Sep 1, 2010 #11

    kniltej

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    Im a "burn it down" person and I will NOT go to Skywest. Simply because I dont drink the KoolAid anywhere and I dont want a west coast base! lol

    If we are 8 months away from declaring bankruptcy then why doesnt Skywest just wait 8 months and get us for a quarter of the price?? And lets not forget that (according to Lamp) we (XJT Management) just pulled out of a US Air contract for more flying. Who knows if that could have helped us make a turn towards being profitable one day with additional cost cutting?

    I love how you folks are saying lets just merge with ASA and get an Industry leading contract and then Skywest will see how great we have it and come running. Wont happen. You really think Uncle Jerry is going to let us walk away with a contract that is better than what his favored sons have? That prevents him from getting what he wants? That truly prevents whipsawing? Nope! Keep dreaming! One List is the ONLY hope we have of any attempt at making a change in this industry.
     
  12. Sep 1, 2010 #12

    seattlepilot984

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    Sad but true.
     
  13. Sep 1, 2010 #13

    D-Luv

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    My reaction to this is to continue on status quo. If we have to file bankruptcy or cease operations then so be it.
     
  14. Sep 1, 2010 #14

    Clipper7Seas

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    Nevermind.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  15. Sep 1, 2010 #15

    FROG

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    Dude, I don't want PBS either, but let's face it...if we merge with ASA we are going to be dealing with PBS...
     
  16. Sep 1, 2010 #16

    rcb

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    Since when does being bankrupt mean you're out of business these days? Look at Mesa. Look at the new rules for credit cards, bank bailouts, etc. :)
     
  17. Sep 1, 2010 #17

    Guardguy

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    It doesn't, but it does mean you have nothing to bargain with, I guess you are accepting being Mesa is acceptable, no one is going to hire a bankrupt airline to do feed for them I can tell you that. We have our scope language to bargain with now, in BK, we have nothing, only more concessions to bargain with. We gave back and got NOTHING FOR IT, what is in the future, more give backs to stay an independent and then after we give more back, we get bought by Mesa or Pinnacle, as they say A BIRD IN HAND IS WORTH TWO IN THE BUSH!!!!!
     
  18. Sep 1, 2010 #18

    Guardguy

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    Why don't they wait, because no one wants the maihem that would cause, no one is going to hire us to do feed for them when they look at our situation, you can thank Mesa for that, they just ran the Delta ops into the ground before going BK, just as we are doing with the United cancelations, we are broke, the UAL deal was done only because they new this deal was in the offing. We gave concessions for what, for NOTHING, we got nothing out of it. We have something of value in our scope language, when we go BK it will be gone!!!!!!!
     
  19. Sep 1, 2010 #19

    littleagnes99

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    Sounds like some of our guys have been hanging out with jerry and tom drinking the skywest koolaid in St. George.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  20. Sep 6, 2010 #20

    jack-ace

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    My very uneducated two cents, and call me a kookaid drinker all you want: I'd rather be at an airline where mgmt can actually manage, i.e. Sky just hired, never furloughed, and did they take paycuts? than at an airline where self-inflated pilots make essentially the same pay but think we're somehow sooo much better, we hold our ground....all the way into bankruptcy. How does that kind of stupidity, whether termed "union-loyalty" or what-have-you, make any more sense than what our mgmt has done for the past 3 years??

    As an uneducated newbie to the business, please enlighten me. I've "been here" 3 years now and have 1 year to show for it.
     

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