Discussion in 'The Pipe' started by wilma fingerdo, Jan 14, 2015.
I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact I'm glad you said it. This is exactly what this boils down to. You just admitted we have a really good PBS system that was negotiated under a different situation. There are things in there that the company didn't realize they agreed to. They have learned their lesson and won't likely let that happen again.
IMO, there are four items that will not survive in a new JCBA.
1. Our current vacation rules in our PBS.
2. Your current line bidding.
3. Your Bfund.
4. Your LTD.
The question is whether a JCBA can pass without those items. I doubt it.
So the next question is what happens if both sides just drag this out like they have been doing for 4 years now and we just keep what we have?
I actually advocate staying separate at this point and just keep what we have. I only argue for Flightline because it is a tried and tested platform that doesn't globalize. However as someone pointed out above, the globalization won't affect me. However in testing that was done, the restricted group has been shown to go as high as 70% in small bases.
I agree with you completely however that neither side is going to keep what they have in a JCBA. However I believe BOTH sides have been using delay tactics to avoid a JCBA that doesn't have the outliers and to hold on to the "goodies" as long as possible.
Red Baron, You've figured out the recipe to the secret sauce! I don't know why our MEC just hasn't come out plainly to the pilots and said this. Maybe they will.
The company doesn't care whether we bid on sheets of toilet paper, so long as the end product provides greater efficiency and reduced cost. As you alluded to, the company has no interest in Flightline as it currently exists. It is actually more expensive that line bidding with ASA current work rules. Now some may surmise that we should support Flightline if it is more expensive. "It will put us in a stronger negotiating position", or "it must be better for the pilots if it is more expensive". This is sophomoric thinking. Everything in negotiations will be bought, sold, or exchanged. Since the failure of the TA1 the company has agreed that these net purchase, sales, and exchanges will be net neutral. This is the only concession that the company has agreed to publicly. But what does it actually mean? In order to achieve a net neutral contract, the cost of existing Flightline, will come from L-XJT pilots in everything that you hold precious, because frankly, the ASA contract 2007 provides almost nothing of value worth selling, except their inefficient Flightline system; and Smartpref system can do essentially the same thing and provide improved benefits for the greater group.
If you don't believe me, please reference JCBA version 1.0 and read between the lines, ask yourself, why did the XJT pilots take such a beating on the JCBA while the ASA pilots made out like bandits?
Good Job Red Baron!
Now we are really getting to the truth. You will never hear this from either MEC as they are both political entities. Any JCBA will not be as good as either side is used to.
If neither side want a JCBA where both sides are going to lose something they consider HUGE (and changing to ANY sort of PBS OR losing the B-fund OR losing the LTD are ALL huge losses), then why bother? They're not guaranteeing new planes anyway.
If SmartPref proves to be much better than line bidding than maybe (it's a lot better for Phase II), otherwise we should stick with what we've got.
It looks to me that the ERJ side have the better deal right now and are making progress on preparing to make the one key concession (PBS) less painful. What has the CRJ side done other than forcing us all to spend a huge amount of money on a fruitless arbitration?
This really isnt that difficult. The company puts a dollar amount on every aspect of the contract. They have a total amount they are willing to give the pilot group. You can move things around however you want, they will not go over that number. Going over that number eliminates profitability. So stay within that number, or as many would say, "burn it down".
I'll draw my line in the sand right here and right now. I'm not taking ANY type concession, be it actual, figuratively, metphorically, artificially, or otherwise. ESPECIALLY with PBS on the table...
Did someone hack JM's sign in?
No, it is that difficult. So, "we move things around however you want." The company doesn't care...Stay within that number to keep the business viable. One pilot group wants to keep their pet issue, in this case non-globalized PBS. The other group wants to keep their LTD and 401k, etc. Pilot group that want's to keep their non-globalized PBS wins out.
Now to pay for an additional 3000 pilots on a non-globalized PBS that is more expensive than any other in history what do you do. You take away the other groups LTD, 401K, etc. Cost Neutral, non-concessionary, done!
JCBA 1.0 (soon to be JCBA 2.0) everybody cries foul, who agreed to this?
Except at the end of the day, that pilot group's non-globalized PBS is actually globalized manually by that pilot group's PWG. That pilot group's MEC has just performed the Jedi mind trick on that pilot group long enough that THEY actually believe the lie. They even have videos to prove it.....
Yep, and while they're at it, they will have you give up everything that really means something, to keep the illusion going. I guess it's kind of like that privileged kid that has no problem bankrupting mommy's and daddy's bank account so long as they can keep their regular supply of crack coming.
Well I ain't nobody's daddy.
Nothing except waste time and money. In all fairness, it’s not the asa line pilots, it’s the asa mec. The MEC officers and the pwg all know they are going to have to go fly the line again (God forbid) if this mereger is completed. Xjt has some that need to be sent back to the line also (RS).
Correct. However, middendorf’s idea is for asa’s compensation number to go up and xjt’s to go down to meet it. In other word’s, the asa mec wants gains for their pilot group and wants the xjt pilot group to take concessions to pay for it.
As far as johnny's compulsive arguing, it is just that. He'll get the same schedule no matter what the pbs system is. He has stated that he doesn't care about junior pilots so it's not like he's looking out for them. Remember his "you're junior, life isn't fair" statements? He's not being sent in by the asa mec as they can't stand him. He just has a compulsion to argue.
You're from SkyWest aren't you?
Notice who's being expected to give up more here?
That's because you have the better, more expensive contract that is further from industry standard.
Neither side has to give up anything, but that requires delaying a JCBA indefinitely.
At least now we are finally getting down to why after 4 years we are still at a standstill. Both sides want the other side to give up their outliers.
Still want to know, someone hack JM's sign in?
"you guys need to get on board/get in line.........."
Absolutely incorrect. I don't want you to give up a thing. It's YOU and YOUR side that is always talking about what we need to give up, and what you might have to give up.
Why does it have to be assumed the L-XJT contract should NOT be used as the industry standard. Please enlighten me on exactly WHO established your perceived lower "Industry Standard" for FFD airlines. Why doesn't everyone else come up to the level for which the L-XJT negotiators of 2004 had the balls to negotiate? Remember......generating revenue is the job of MANAGEMENT; not the pilot group.
I will echo what Read-Only stated above.....I don't want ANYONE to have to give up ANYTHING. So when I say that, I literally mean I want the ASA group to be brought UP to "our" level...not the other way around.
In 2004 you had a lucrative cost plus agreement as the sole Continental Express carrier. Times have changed and the "industry standard" is set by your fellow colleagues at other FFD carriers, many of which belong to the same failure of a union that you do...ie ALPA.
Listen I want what you guys have plus some. I have also wanted ALPA to stop this bidding within a brand by multiple carriers. I have wanted ALPA to have brand scope and single lists so that this wouldn't happen. I didn't get what I want, and you won't either.
This isn't 2004 with a 10% cost plus CPA as a sole provider of CAL lift. You now work for an airline with the highest costs by far that only flies an aircraft that is being replaced. You also are part of a holding company with a non union side that is cheaper.
We can keep what we have, but that can only be done by not getting a JCBA. So either we stay separate and forget the JCBA and keep what we have, or we concede some things and get a JCBA. At this point, I'm prepared to just stay separate and keep what we want. The wheels are already in motion to continue to shrink XJT and grow SkyWest.
Smartpref will be cheaper than your current line bidding or our current Flightline. It is being used as a "horse trade" and/or a delay tactic to hold onto to the Bfund and LTD.
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