Pilot poisoned by toxic fumes

Discussion in 'The Pipe' started by DirkDiggler, Mar 4, 2017.

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  1. Sep 24, 2018 #41

    badog

    badog

    badog

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    I’m out on Ltd because of multiple fume events.
    Wife on the 75/76 out for 3 months because of a fume event.
    It’s the acm bearing seal that fails, and spews oil onto the hot compressor. The acm is the culprit.
    Engine bleed air powers the acm, there is no engine bleed air entering the cabin.
    This is the reason the 787s’ acm is powered electrically.
    Military pilots are suffering the effects of exposure too.

    Poor silly souls
     
  2. Sep 24, 2018 #42

    DirkDiggler

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    The ACM is sometimes the direct culprit because it also has lubricating oil. In the 145 case it’s normally the engine. Just look at the oil consumption history on the suspected engine next time you have this issue. I had one that consumed 26 quarts in 3 weeks versus the other side which consumed 7. Bad seals in engine and bad seals in ACM = fume event
     
  3. Sep 24, 2018 #43

    badog

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    I would agree as the engine seals fail and spew oil into the combustion section and the accompanying rise in pressure overwhelms the air cycle machines bearing seals.
    There is no engine bleed air directly entering the cabin.

    tfayd
     
  4. Sep 24, 2018 #44

    iBuyHouses

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    How much have you seen from the company as far as guidance on this issue? That's the problem. I never even knew about this until this thread but I can tell you that I have flown many planes over the years with "dirty gym socks" smell not knowing what it was or that it was anything other than an annoyance.

    It's not really fair to blame the previous crew. Most people have not seen this thread and I'm sure many have never heard of this issue.

    ALPA really needs to be spearheading this. If they don't, individual pilots/flight attendants/passengers need to start bringing lawsuits.
     
  5. Sep 24, 2018 #45

    badog

    badog

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    Ding ding ding !

    You answered your own question, (again) !

    Legal responsibility is why you haven’t heard jack about the issue.
    Imagine the impact to the industry if everyone found out their beloved means of travel was poisoning them with organophosphates ?
    Aircraft designers, manufacturers, operators, et al would all be responsible.
    Keep in mind, it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove.

    Poor silly souls
     
  6. Sep 24, 2018 #46

    DirkDiggler

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    It makes me irate when these douches are coming up with 12 new ways to run a checklist or flow, but zero mention of this problem for the many years it has been occurring. No guidance on recognition, no training on how to handle it. Nothing in the manuals.

    Spirit took the lead on being proactive after one of their CA’s died and the FO became permanently disabled after a fume event.
     
  7. Sep 24, 2018 #47

    badog

    badog

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    After the screw job inc. pulled, I’d be reluctant too !

    Guidance.
    O2 mask, don select 100 %...
    Crew communication establish.

    Next question.
     
  8. Sep 24, 2018 #48

    DirkDiggler

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    People don’t even write the issue up. I doubt crews will be donning O2 masks and diverting for an intermittent smell without some guidance from the company.
     
  9. Sep 24, 2018 #49

    badog

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    True but with this issue, your safety and the safety of your pax is paramount. Any hint of fumes, smell, smoke, dizzy, . . .
    Don the mask, drop the cabin masks and e-decent to a suitable airport.
    Write it up on the ground and make ‘em come get it.
    Go to the overnight and file your ASAP.
    Or just gtfo out of the profession.
    I did both.
     
  10. Sep 25, 2018 #50

    qotsaautopilot

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    O2 don

    THEN try to isolate it. Shut the cross bleed and turn off each pack individually and see if it stops. If you can’t isolate it, shut them both off and start descending to an alternate. If you’re on the ground and on the APU bleed, get it off and return to the gate. If you’re on the gate, get off the plane.

    I had plane with a fume event international. Mx couldn’t isolate it and after a 3hr delay the flight home was cancelled and they ferried in a replacement the next day.

    PUT ON YOUR OXYGEN MASK!
     
  11. Sep 25, 2018 #51

    red75852000

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    Not disagreeing with the issue of fumes in the cabin, but just want to clarify a couple things. There is no oil in the ACM, it uses air bearings.

    You all probably know this, bu there is a limit to the amount of oil in a specific timeframe that can be added to an engine, if it exceeds this it goes on oil watch for a specific amount of time. During this time troubleshooting is performed to determine where the oil is going. Most of the time it's either an external leak or it's over pressurizing the AGB and blowing it out the breather (not going into the airstream). In order for oil to get into the bleed air it would have to be a seal at the front of the engine leaking. Normally when atomized oil gets into the cabin the lav smoke detector "sees" it right away and goes off.
     
    Whirlygig likes this.
  12. Sep 25, 2018 #52

    qotsaautopilot

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    I don’t know much about the 145 anymore but in all of our fume events at Spirit I don’t think the lav smoke detector has ever gone off. This stuff is very toxic
     
  13. Sep 25, 2018 #53
  14. Sep 25, 2018 #54

    DirkDiggler

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    In the many events I’ve had where the smell was extremely noxious, the lav smoke has never gone off. This is definitely the asbestos of the aviation industry.
     
  15. Sep 26, 2018 #55

    qotsaautopilot

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  16. Sep 26, 2018 #56

    Whirlygig

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    Red is 100% correct. I will add that there have been episodes in the past with no associated lav smoke indication. Non-the-less, MX is aware to check for possible ingress of atomized oil into the pack system and act accordingly.
     
  17. Sep 26, 2018 #57

    Zero-G

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    A little company training on this would go a long way towards identifying the issue. I don't want to have to find out long after the flight that what I noticed was killing me the whole flight and could have been rectified immediately by simply bypassing the compromised bleed source. Maybe they can come up with an airborne FMS reset procedure as well while they are at it...
     
  18. Sep 26, 2018 #58

    qotsaautopilot

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    According to the ALPA fast read yesterday, the FAA reauthorization bill has new training and reporting requirements for fumes
     
  19. Sep 26, 2018 #59

    Frick'nFrack

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    100 % agree to write it up, AFDL and IOR and ASAP.
     
  20. Sep 26, 2018 #60

    iBuyHouses

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    That will do nothing for the passengers except give them the misconception that they are now breathing safe air and possibly cause them to breathe more deeply.
     

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