Obama's stance on abortion...

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Whirlpool, Aug 21, 2008.

Help Support The Pipe by donating:

  1. Aug 21, 2008 #1

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    16
    Discuss.........
     
  2. Aug 21, 2008 #2

    azpilot

    azpilot

    azpilot

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    2,486
    Likes Received:
    6
    He would like you to have one, he will pay for it, and possibly abort yourself. :)

    Progress means change but change doesn't always mean progress.....
     
  3. Aug 22, 2008 #3

    APU

    APU

    APU

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,520
    Likes Received:
    10
    Personnally, I am pro-life. However, I also realize that no president in the foreseeable future will be able to overturn the abortion laws in the United States.

    As far as Obama is concerned, I thought his answer during the faith forum reference "when does life begin?" was much more thoughtful and respectful to the American people than McCain's. McCain's answer was nothing more than a pander to the religous right.

    Obama's answer was more honest, "that's above my pay grade"...essentially he deferred that wisdom to God and God alone. He then went on to a plan to try to reduce the need/desire for abortions. I think that makes for a wise compromise.
     
  4. Aug 22, 2008 #4

    kidicarus5897

    kidicarus5897

    kidicarus5897

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    9
    he wouldn't be for abortions so much if he just remembered to remove the dam gust lock! the checklist is there for a reason man!
     
  5. Aug 22, 2008 #5

    preludespeeder

    preludespeeder

    preludespeeder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    11
    You want to discuss abortions. Simple it is none of my **** business what my neighbor does in their life. I have made my choices, they are mine, and nobody needs to tell me how to live or what I can or can not do. Isn't that the republican platform, freedoms for Americans, yet they pander to pro-life people.
     
  6. Aug 22, 2008 #6

    lap

    lap

    lap

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    13,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    Nah, it was just a cop out. He might be the person who nominates the next supreme court justice. Its not going to be God's wisdom alone that might decide this issue. Part of it will fall squarley on the shoulders of the next president and Obama once again was able to talk his way out of it.

    Its none of our business if your neighbor kills someone?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2008
  7. Aug 22, 2008 #7

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    1
    Never understood this entire thing. Let's see if I have it straight....Republicans are against abortion but for the death penalty and Democrats are against the death penalty but for abortion. Hmmmm. Interesting.
     
  8. Aug 22, 2008 #8

    lap

    lap

    lap

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    13,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    One is innocent and the other one committed a heinous crime.
     
  9. Aug 22, 2008 #9

    APU

    APU

    APU

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,520
    Likes Received:
    10

    Yeah Lap:

    True until 10 years later DNA evidence proves otherwise.:(
     
  10. Aug 22, 2008 #10

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    1
    Solution: every adult who is in favor of abolishing abortion (that includes Lap) must add their name to a national list of people willing to adopt the resulting children.

    I find it interesting that most people who are so against abortion are the same people who also discourage any kind of government assistance to care for these children who are born into severe poverty. No one cares about their health after they are born (just as long as they are born, right?) or their education.

    But back on topic - ie, politicians and abortion - all politicians do is exploit this topic of abortion. They play up their stance to encourage uninformed and ignorant voters to vote for them based upon this ONE subject and not the aggregate total of their entire platform. One will rarely see a political television/radio ad addressing the topic of abortion in a large city, but you will see numerous ads on this topic in a small town (especially in the south). Another reason for all politicians to be ashamed of themselves.
     
  11. Aug 22, 2008 #11

    lap

    lap

    lap

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    13,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    I'm not against abortion. As long as my tax dollars don't pay for them, I'm fine. Any other aSSumptions you care to make?:rolleyes:
     
  12. Aug 22, 2008 #12

    FlyXJTnow

    FlyXJTnow

    FlyXJTnow

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,830
    Likes Received:
    17
    Obama's answer was at least honest. This issue has religious, medical, and ethical implications. To say "when" life begins isn't as easy as people think. McCain pandered as usual.

    I just don't get the whole abortion thing. Its a PRIVATE issue. If your voting based on whether a candidate favors abortion or not, you shouldn't have a vote. We have all these pressing issues facing our country today that affect the average American. Instead, people are getting bent around the axles over some dividing cells in a woman's uterus! Gimme a break!
     
  13. Aug 22, 2008 #13

    preludespeeder

    preludespeeder

    preludespeeder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    11
    The problem with your attack is that it is not murder for a first term abortion. Are you going to give a mother who mis-carries the death penalty for premeditated murder because she had a known condition but wanted to try. I myself will never encourage abortion and I feel there are better ways to avoid having kids via birth control. But wait, the right wants to take that away also. Try minding your own business instead of telling every body else what to do.
     
  14. Aug 22, 2008 #14

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    16
    This now holds the record for the most ignorant post on the planet. Charge a woman who miscarries? Again, I ask, are you that stupid?

    So what separates a child between the day before second term and the next..when i then becomes "murder"? Here is what you fully support..make sure you check the age..and make sure you look at ALL the photos:

    Abort73.com || Abortion Pictures

    Assuming you are married, would support your wifes right to abort YOUR child in the first trimester? Yes or no? It is HER right...and not yours.

    Also, are you aware that in some states, the death of a fetus after 22 weeks requires a death certificate be issued by the state? Why is that if it is not a human being?

    Jacobsen...

    Are you that blind that you cannot see the difference between the death sentence and abortion? Why is a death sentence carried out? Could it be that a person made a choice that possibly ended the life of another? And that compares to abortion how? What choice did the unborn make?

    Are you married? Do you have children?

    Fly..

    Many people vote for different reasons...at to deny them of their reasons is a bit hypocritical? Personally, I am well enough off not to really worry about the economy...so why should I worry about it? It does not effect my daily life. I am debt free, have money in the bank and my childs education is paid for through college..what do I need to worry about? I have fought the war in Iraq (which most Americans care less and less about). Everyone has their issues that will drive their voting. If abortion is one of them, then that is THEIR choice.

    Maybe it should be my personal opinion that anyone who has not worn the uniform should not be allowed to vote since that have not earned their freedoms. But since you have such huge ties to the military (or so you claim) then you can vote? How would that go over? Dumb right.....I thought so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2008
  15. Aug 22, 2008 #15

    T-Gagnon

    T-Gagnon

    T-Gagnon

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    4
    All I can say is WOW.

    My wife and I suffered, and I mean suffered, two back to back miscarriages. Anyone who has experienced this will never be the same..ever. There was not a nano-second that went by that I did not think that I had lost a child. It was devastating to both my wife and I. Miscarriages are very common, occurring in about 20% of all pregnancies. There are a million things that need to happen to have a viable pregnancy..it truly is a miracle. The second time around..they thought they heard a very faint heartbeat...the next day it was gone. This was in the first trimester. In fact, you can hear the heart beat as early as 6 weeks. Our hopes of starting a family were slowing drifting away. On our third and final attempt, my wife suffered complications at 30 weeks. We were told that both her and my daughter would have died had we not got her to the hospital when we did. My daughter was taken by c-section 48 hours later...nine weeks early. She weighed 3.8 lbs and lost nearly a half a pound in less than a week. She spent the next 5 weeks in the Neo-natal intensive care unit. Today, she is perfectly healthy. She is smarter than most her age and has an amazing personality..she is also very caring and aware of how others feel. I attribute this to her fight and innate appreciation of life and its worth. She has changed how I look at everything around me.

    There was never a time when she was not my child, my blood, my soul..my being. From the moment she was conceived until the day she takes her last breath, she is my child and a life worthy of protecting. And there is NOTHING I would not do to protect her, NOTHING.

    Not that it matters to those that believe life does not begin until birth or at a certain point in pregnancy, but I feel sad for you and for those that you support who think abortion does not take a life. I guess we will all answer in the end.
     
  16. Aug 22, 2008 #16

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    1
    Both actions take away a life. I'm actually pro-death penalty, for whatever that's worth, so you're kinda preaching to the choir here.

    About the same choice as they have being born to parents unable to care for them. The same choice as they have growing up inadequately cared for (both physically and emotionally) that leads them to the same poor choices that their parents made as THEY bring additional unwanted children into the world....so the cycle continues.

    Happily married with two gorgeous, healthy, smart, wanted children (2 year old boy and a beautiful 5 month old girl that is playing with the keyboard here as I type) that my husband and I CHOSE to have. Both my husband and I were fortunate enough to grow up in financially secure families and we both received a goodly amount of education. This allowed us to make responsible decisions regarding procreation and we were able to do so once we could provide for children.

    Our choice to have these children was a private decision between spouses.

    So, as long as we're lobbing questions at one another, how many unwanted children here in the U.S. have you adopted?
     
  17. Aug 22, 2008 #17

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    16
    So what you are saying is that basically an unwanted child is not worthy of life? That child was a CHOICE by two people who got together knowing full well what the results could be. Now it is ok to punish an innocent bystander for what two people have done. How about we randomly shoot people for witnessing a crime? It had NO choice in the matter..NONE. Why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts of murder in the state who sees some of the highest abortion rates in the US? Why not just one since his poor wife could have easily aborted the child and gone back to work?

    How about giving the world the option to choose to care for the "unwanted". Adoption is a lengthy and expensive process..that is why many go abroad. Make it open to more qualified people..make it "cheaper". If you think for one second there are not many who would adopt, you are crazy. I know of at least four couples looking to adopt here at home..and more who FOSTER and help place "unwanted" kids in good homes. There are options...abortion is simply an easy one. I guess it is just as easy to treat a human being as you would an unwanted pet...

    We considered and pursued adoption until we were blessed with a child. It still is an option. Not everyone is as blessed/lucky as you and your husband and cannot afford the adoption option. They usually just go without.....

    Let me ask you...
    When did your two children become viable human beings and at what point did they have value to you and your husband? Had you lost them early in pregnancy, would you have mourned their loss?

    Another question, would it have been acceptable for Terry Schiavo's husband to walk into her room and shoot here since she was "unwanted" and was a continued burden?

    I am glad you have two healthy children.....
     
  18. Aug 22, 2008 #18

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why is it that these scenarios always end with the child being born? Why is no one addressing the LIFE the child is born into? Is it okay to punish the child with a crack-whore for a mother and an unknown father? Is it okay to punish the child with inadequate health care, nutrition, vaccinations, education, safety and love? It is as if people have a mission just to see every child brought into the world and then their responsibility ends there...mission accomplished and who the heck cares about them after that?

    We are in agreement on this. But you need the fix the adoption problems first.

    I'm so glad you were blessed with a child you wanted.

    We experienced 3 miscarriages before our son was born. They were planned pregnancies so they all had value to our family. But did I go and have a funeral/wake for our miscarriages? Nope. It wasn't meant to happen.


    Well, now, aren't you just opening a giant can of worms here. :) Let's tackle one can at a time, eh?
     
  19. Aug 22, 2008 #19

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Whirlpool

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    16
    We can never know what life the child would be born into if that life is not given the chance..is it? You cannot say with 100% certainty that the child will grow up and become a burden on society, its parents..ect. We are making assumptions and the cost of those are...life. I simply do not feel that I have the power to make that choice for someone who has no choice. You imply that ALL unwanted pregnancies are destined to end up on the social program books and that denies some simple facts. I know of plenty of people who had "unwanted" pregnancies but were strong enough to take responsibility and those children are just as good as any other kid.

    Can you say without hesitation ALL unwanted pregnancies will end up uneducated, malnourished, unhealthy, unsafe and not loved? There are plenty of programs out there to deal with "unwanted" pregnancies...I have donated hundreds of dollars to them. People just need to choose that route..if they choose not to and destroy a life, then they will have to live with that burden...and many do. You make some very broad statements...show me some facts that support them.

    Had your pregnancies been unplanned (things happen), would you have aborted them since they do not fit into your life's plan?

    I am interested to hear your response about Mrs. Shiavo.
     
  20. Aug 23, 2008 #20

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    MJacobsen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yes, of course I am making broad based assumptions. So are you. If we weren't, then we'd have to address and argue every single individual case, such as rape, mother's health, what constitutes endangering a mother's health, etc, etc. You mention programs available for unwanted pregnancies. Are those programs mandated by law? Until they are and are widespread and government funded, then we cannot make the termination of an unwanted pregnancy illegal.

    Quite honestly, I would love to see the day where abortions are a thing of the past. But until we address the other problems that go hand-in-hand, the solution is not making them illegal. (And even if you did, you wouldn't eradicate it....my great-grandmother died after trying to bring up 4 children in abject poverty and finding herself pregnant with a 5th, used the old coat hanger method. There's a skeleton in our closet for you.)

    The biggest problem I have is the hypocrisy I see. Certain lawmakers in Washington rally around the anti-abortion banner, yet these same lawmakers consistently vote down bills that would mandate childcare in the workforce, they restrict access to birth control, they make the adoption laws near impossible to navigate, they stubbornly cling to teaching abstinence only in schools, while at the same time allow insurance companies to cover Viagra for men. Hypocrisy.

    Hard to say. I suppose a lot would have depended on my life circumstances. Was I married? Did I have health insurance? Could I afford to put a basic roof over my child's head and food in their mouth? How would I work to afford these things and yet still care for the child? There are so many variables that factor in and that is why I don't feel I can sit back in my comfortable circumstances and pass judgment on others.

    I honestly didn't follow the case that closely. The only thing I took away from the whole thing was to make sure I now have a legal directive as to what is to happen to me should I somehow end up in a vegetative state and on any kind of life support. I wouldn't want my family to have to go through the heartache Mrs. Shiavo's went through. My family now has clear, written, and legal directions on how I want to proceed if that should ever befall me.
     

Share This Page