Joint TA approved by L-CAL and L-UAL MECs.

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Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2007
mgmt did a great job, it will probably pass by 51%

The senior guys want their signing bonus and an extra 15$/hr :(


Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2005
The problem with that is a bunch of 50 seaters are going away, and a bunch of 70-76 are coming. If you drag this thing out, your side loses. If we finish it, we both prosper.
We both prosper only if neither side takes a concession.

To you and Merchant, this is how I see it. If we were still independent, we would still have our old CPA that didn't have any larger aircraft clause. And if as you guys say, we were gonna go bankrupt if it wasn't for "ASA" buying us, we would all be out of jobs. So to me, the current status quo is way better than what would be reality of being independent and the alternative can be no worse than that alternate reality. So I ask you guys again, why should we, on the XJT side, take ANY concession?

I have a plan B. I suggest everyone get one if they don't already have one.

Anybody see this?
I like that one. And I'd like to see this in our contract:

4-H-3 The Company shall reimburse pilots for governmental fees associated with the Global Entry (U.S. Customs Border Protection) program or successor program.
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Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2010

The JCBA Scope Story*
By First Officer K.C. Mueller
UAL-MEC Domestic Code Share Chairman, Scope SME
Delta Scope or a Scope Choke?** Late in the summer of 2012 it became clear the United Pilots were going to have to emulate “Delta Scope” in the JCBA. (223 76-seat jets, 102 70-seat jets [325 big 223+102] and 125 50-seat jets) for a RJ fleet total of 450. 325 big (70/76) and 125 small (50). Included in “Delta Scope” was a substantial and permanent shift in flying from the Express to the Mainline via language, plus a new small Mainline aircraft type.* Added together, “Delta Scope was truly impressive and delivered all the goals held dear by Delta Pilots”; shrinking Express and growing Mainline under a new CBA that, when it becomes amendable, will leave the Delta Pilots in a position of strength regarding Express for the next CBA cycle. But while Delta Scope answered almost all the pattern bargained deficiencies of the last 20 years, your Scope SME’s saw one soft spot. The B717 airframe was already almost 15 years old. There was one issue still left to resolve before this struggle was over: The “gap-in-gauge” @ 100 seats.
Strategically, this RJ War was always going to 100 seats and it won’t be over until we have that fight* –* no doubt about it. That fight wasn’t quite over at DAL. If we could capture all the best of Delta plus fix that issue, we would have ended forever the growth potential of UAX and the ability of UAX to threaten the Mainline. While much can be said of the tortured path all network pilot groups have traveled seeking to balance jobs and marketing realities surrounding the RJ the opportunity to reflect and relax will never arrive until the 100 seat jet is safely in the hands of Mainline Pilots and the War is over.
That was the set-up when we began negotiating “Delta scope” in the summer of 2012.
This challenge was coupled with another. At United there were no 76 seat RJ’s. Delta started C2012 with 120, and all the improvements and protections for the Delta Pilots didn’t start until 154 76 seat jets were on the property.* How do we get from zero 76 seat jets to all that Delta agreed to while also achieving what the United Pilots deserved at the outset, namely the security that transfer of flying from UAL to UAX was inverted by the JCBA?* The company was willing to agree to the “Delta” end state: 450 hulls, 325 big ( 223/102 ) and 125 small, the seat and weight limits, the shift in flying, the no-furlough clause, the mileage restriction, the retirement of the 50 seaters, but there was no clear path to the 154th 76 seat jet. After that the Delta language could be copied perfectly. But we were on our own from 0 to 154.*
It is because of this the Section 1-C-1 language in the JCBA is so complex and difficult to understand. We had to invent language that would get United pilots from 0-154 76 seat jets while also getting United pilots what they deserve ( shrinking UAX ) and then overlay that language on top of the Delta language. We have two scenarios, if you will, built into our UAX language (Section 1-C-1) and the Company will ultimately decide which path we travel. What’s Important for the United Pilots to understand is…. both paths accomplish almost the same thing.* The Company will either deliver “Delta Scope” in its complete form or fall into a UAX “Scope Choke”.
Since “Delta Scope” is well understood and its value to Pilots very straight forward, let’s examine the language crafted that results in the “Scope Choke”; our nickname for the event that occurs should the Company attempt to deny United Pilots the “New Narrow-body” by never flying more than 153 76-seat jets.* On Jan 1, 2014, the Company obtains the right to fly 130 76-seat RJ’s inside a new limit of 255 UAX aircraft of 51-76 seats.* Currently, United flies approximately 190 aircraft that meet that definition, and they have no limit. 255 – 190 = 65. Without the “New Narrow-body” being delivered to United Pilots the limit of 255 will apply for the life of the JCBA. In just over 3 years the Company has scheduled over 150 50-seat RJ retirements simply for economic reasons. The 50-seat RJ clearly represents the “fleet of the past” while the new restriction is placed on the “fleet of the future”, aircraft of 51-76 seats. Moving forward from Jan 1, 2014, while the “fleet of the past” is dying the “fleet of the future” is severely restricted.* Did the Company get 130 76 seat RJ’s? Not really.* 255 – 190 = 65. The Company will get 65 76 seat RJ’s if they don’t get any more Q400’s or 70 seat RJ’s but after the 65th hull they are merely exchanging a 70 seat hull for a 76 seat one. That is 6 seats net, for each 76 seat RJ after the 65th. Not the target, but collateral damage we should score.
Besides that, regardless of how the Company allocates its 255 hulls within our new restrictions the 50-seat RJ fleet is dying. With that and no other action by the Company UAX is eventually headed to a new maximum RJ fleet of 255. Contrast that with today’s UAX RJ fleet of over 500. If the Company Mainline fleet does not grow at all over the next 6 years the UAX fleet will still shrink by almost 40% just through 50-seat RJ retirements. Even without the language forcing flying from Express to Mainline being triggered (same as Delta, not effective until 154 76-seat RJ’s) we are forcing flying from UAX to the Mainline or out the door to a competitor.* Without all of “Delta Scope”, being copied by the Company the UAX fleet will soon simply be too small for the Company’s marketing needs.* Once this “Scope Choke” hits the Company has only one way out: Use the language within the JCBA to grow the 76-seat RJ fleet further, the step we anticipated the Company might not want to do.
That brings the 154th 76-seat jet, which brings our “New Narrow-body” the rest of 1-C-1-f and -g, and the capstone to the whole strategy.* On that day, United’s Pilots will have won the RJ war - our ultimate goal.* After two decades of struggle for the dividing line between “Express” and “Mainline” we will have found victory at almost the same place the fight started. The original seat limit United Pilots imposed on UAX in 1991 ….. 75 Seats (Feeder Scope Mod, 1991).
The UAX language within the JCBA, regardless of which path is chosen by the Company (replicating “Delta Scope” or trying to avoid it - the “Scope Choke”), insures UAX shrinks.* We ( Scope SME’s ) actually predict that before the Company will buy the “New Narrow-body “ they will try one last time to avoid it by … ASKING YOU TO SELL IT BACK TO THEM. When is the last time the Company asked you to modify your Express Scope for them?*
The UAX piece of the JCBA improves the pattern in pattern bargaining and either improves on Delta Scope or crushes UAX. This was our goal; develop language that recreates and compels the Company to replicate the Delta Express Fleet in case they have second thoughts. Either way, with this JCBA the balance of power and flying returns to our Pilots.* Then, with the 100 seat jet in our hands, we cement it there.


Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2006
They really want this thing to pass it seems. Anyone who has read the scope portion of the TA knows that a 255 a/c limit is a pipe-dream

Spud Runner

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
It makes me sick to think of the growth that is going to occur at Repubic and BlowJets.


Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2004
(So for more confusion, here is an LUAL {pilot, not mec} take on scope. From another board. Jer)

Analysis of RJ scope provisions in the 2012 Tentative Agreement with
United Airlines

Summary: The scope section of the TA opens the door for major RJ gains by the company yet only rewards the pilots in an unlikely scenario. RJ scope essentially comes down to two things in the new TA: numbers of aircraft and block hour ratios. Currently, there are 555 RJs flying for UAX.After Jan 1, 2014, the TA will allow the company to flymore RJs. In fact, the company can fly 488 50-seaters and up to 255 70/76-seaters for a total fleet of 743 aircraft. As you are probably aware, this expanded fleet would luckily be limited to fly no more than 120% of the block hours flown by United’s single-aisle narrowbody fleet. Unfortunately, as of date of signing the company could flyan additional 135,487 block hours with no penalty under this new contract.

While the above scenario paints an ugly picture, what makes it worse is that the MEC has tried hide this fact. The MEC scope video and FAQs are extremely misleading because they make the viewer/reader believe that the block hour ratio and RJ hull counts will be greatly reduced. This only applies if the company purchases a new mainline “small” narrowbody (SNB) aircraft (E-190s, E-195s or CS-100s) and puts them into service, which is highly questionable. This also applies to another selling point for the new TA which is a “hard cap” of 450 RJs. Once again, this cap is only in effect if the company buys a new SNB for United pilots to fly.

Honestly, RJ scope is pretty strong in this contract assuming the company buys a new SNB, but….if the company does not buy a small narrowbody we could be in real trouble with this new scope. Lastly, it is probably worth mentioning the new Delta contract. Many people might be tempted to say that once Delta went down the large RJ path, we were doomed. Unfortunately, that is just not true. Yes, it changed the playing field and the likelihood that we would not have 76-seaters in the TA was greatly diminished, but you have to understand the context. Delta scope already allowed 76 seat jets, they had more RJ’s flying than United, and most importantly, they had a signed deal to deliver 88 small narrow bodies for the Delta pilots to fly. Thus, their 450 aircraft hardcap and a decrease in the ratio of outsourced flying is a foregone conclusion. These differences are huge.

Detailed Analysis: Here is the background for all the assertions I have made. I don’t expect many to read it… but unfortunately all of the things mentioned above are true and I can prove each one.

Part I -- Background Info (Source: United Airlines 2012 Fleet plan)

Current Fleet count – Fleet plan updated as of 25 Oct 2012. Shows totals based on Year-End (YE) projections.

4 (per delivery schedule)

Total SACA*

*SACA = Single Aisle Company Aircraft

0 (per reduction sched)
EMB 120
EMB 170


**Total is (5) five different from TA talking points brief (555) due to scheduled retirement of 15 Q400s and 4 CRJ200s as well as an increase of 7 ERJ-145s and 7 ERJ-135s.

Part II -- Hull Restrictions (source: TA pages 2, 3)

1-C-1-a-(2) States that: On or after Jan 1, 2014 the company can fly:
1) unlimited 37 seat turboprops
2) 50 seat aircraft provided they do not number more than 90% of the number of single aisle aircraft -- 90% of 543 (United single aisle hull count) is 488 50-seaters
3) Up to 255 76/70 seat aircraft of which up to 130 may be 76-seaters.
This is a total of 743 aircraft which is 35% more than we currently have (not including the 37-seat turboprops)

1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) states that:
1) On or after Jan 1, 2016 up to 153 76-seat aircraft with no adjustment to 50 seaters. The total of 255 would still apply for combined 70/76 seaters.

Part III -- Block hours – (source: MEC website FAQ’s, TA pages 3-5)

Block hours (monthly) UAX
Percentage of block hours flown by UAX
Percentage of block hours flown by SAC
Block hours (monthly) United SACA***

SACA block hours per year (156076 x 12)
120% of SACA block hours
Current UAX block hours per year (176000 X 12)
Available block hours with TA

*** This number was calculated by dividing 176,000 by .53 to determine a total.

1-C-1-f Scheduled block hours – in any rolling 12 month period starting a month after the TA is signed the company can fly up to 120% of the block hours flown by the SACA as shown above. This block hour ratio changes….BUT, ONLY IF United Airlines increases the use of 76 seat aircraft past 153 allowed on 1 Jan, 2016.

Part IV -- 450 RJ Hardcap (source: TA pages 4, 5)

Per 1-C-1-g Number of 76 seat aircraft can expand to a total of 223 with a total of 70/76 seaters not to exceed 325 BUT ONLY IF THE COMPANY BUYS a New SNB. The hardcap of 450 RJ is derived by using the formula on the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5. Bullet point 6 on page 5 uses an ominous example but shows how the hardcap would work. When X= 5.19 and United flies 223 76-seaters that equals 70 aircraft above the 153 limit. That is multiplied by 5.19 which equals 363. 488 minus 363 equals 125. 125 50-seaters plus 325 70/76-seaters gives you the 450 hardcap.

Part V – Stage Length (source: TA page 3 and MEC FAQs)

Per 1-C-1-b At least 80% of all UAX flights shall be under 900 statute miles. Per the UAL FAQ, only 16% of UAX flights exceed 900 SM. If 20% of flights were operated at greater than 900 SM this would be a 25% increase.
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Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2005
Tentative Agreement Pro Statement

The following is a reprint of the Tentative Agreement Pro Statement published earlier today by the majority of the CAL MEC Status Representatives who voted in favor of sending the TA to the pilots for your review:

PRO Statement

Throughout the lengthy four party negotiations which culminated in the Tentative United Pilot Contract Agreement, your MEC shared the high expectations of the majority of our pilots. We acknowledge from the start, that it is disappointing that we did not secure equity or full retro pay. It is also disappointing that our hourly pay rates do not catch completely up to Delta's from the start. With that said, we believe that overall, as viewed from the present time to the amendable date, as well as from cover to cover, the Tentative Agreement is Industry Leading. Additionally, while falling short of full retro pay, the lump sum is the highest amount ever achieved by any pilot group in an ALPA contract, and it is dramatically higher than what management believed was acceptable as recently as last July.

The JCBA negotiating environment was difficult on a number of levels. First, the merger required the negotiations to start with two drastically different contracts, both of which are severely concessionary and unsatisfactory. Second, having two distinct MEC's created additional logistical and political issues from the beginning of the process to the end. Third, the National Mediation Board was heavily involved during much of the process. Fourth, the Railway Labor Act is designed to amend and make gradual adjustments to contracts. It was neither designed, nor intended, to merge two drastically different contracts together, while simultaneously recovering from draconian concessions.

Upon first reading, absent any briefings or explanation, the Tentative Agreement leads to many questions, and it can also lead to many assumptions. Because the TA is so lengthy and complex, it is important for every pilot to read the educational materials, view road shows and the TA website, and directly ask for clarification about any sections which he or she continues to find unclear or confusing, rather than simply making assumptions or believing rumors. Questions can be submitted on the Tentative Agreement website


One of the primary cornerstones of our contract is Scope. In an era of complex joint ventures, Open Skies agreements, and the potential for cabotage and foreign encroachment, Scope governs our careers like no other section of our contract. Scope is about protecting and enhancing United pilot careers, which is much more complex than simply the size of individual regional aircraft used to support our mainline flying. Continental pilots had the same 50 seat RJ limit in 2001, yet Continental was the very first airline to furlough pilots after 9/11, and regional Continental Express flying exploded during the 2000's.

We believe that the Scope contained in the TA is arguably the leading Scope agreement in the Industry, and without equal when compared to other peer Legacy Network Carriers. While our TA closely mirrors Delta in some aspects, it exceeds them in its breadth of protections for our pilots. Additionally, it far exceeds US Airways, and what was recently negotiated at American. Further, the TA Scope provides fixes to the weaknesses in our current CAL Scope and that of UAL.

While we may have deprived the company from outsourced 76 seat jets in the past, that deprivation never rewarded our pilots with the ability to fly them, nor did it afford the company an additional means necessary to generate the revenue we required of them for our increased salary and benefit demands. Industry conditions, competitors and the NMB made it more or less inevitable that scope would have to be modified, if we were to make necessary economic progress in the JCBA.

Knowing our pilots' distaste for UAX 76 seat jets, we secured industry leading provisions related to this change, that would ensure United pilot jobs would be protected. We achieved this by virtue of an Industry Leading block hour ratio, tied to our single aisle aircraft. No other carrier has this level of protection at the present, and for our pilots it starts at Date of Signing.This provision also creates a balance of flying between our single aisle aircraft and UAX operations, something that we did not have at CAL, which allowed our single aisle flying to shrink, while CalEx flying exploded following 9/11. This potential is now corrected, by virtue of this new ratio. It also fixes the problem the UAL pilots suffered, which allowed their 737's to be parked and replaced by regional jets. The only way UAX can grow under the new TA, is for our single aisle flying to grow, and conversely, if we begin to shrink our single aisle flying, so too will UAX. An important part of this is that the Widebody growth we expect to experience in the coming years is exempted from this ratio, so UAX will not be able to grow via mainline Widebody growth.

We believe that a huge win for our pilots in this TA is to contractualize the acquisition of our “gap in gauge” aircraft (this is reflected in the New Small Narrowbody Aircraft requirement). Whether or not the company chooses to extend their options that will trigger this purchase remains to be seen, but if they do, it will trigger a landslide of additional protections for our pilots. These include the purchase of the new aircraft, tightening of the block hour ratio and the immediate reduction of 50 seat aircraft, with no mechanism for their return. If they choose not to take that path, then they will operate at a strategic and numerical disadvantage to DAL, and we will still have our block hour protections.

Management used large Q400 turboprop aircraft to exploit our current Scope provisions. TA Scope limits large turboprops, because they are counted just the same in the limits and ratios as jets are.

Another new restriction and limitation in the TA Scope is that 80 percent of all UAX flying must be less than 900 statute miles.


Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2005
I too wondered about when the cap kicks in. Although I find it difficult to beleive that UAL management will bring back 50 seat aircraft in order to have 488 of them. Right now, using his numbers, their are a total of 345 fifty seat aircraft. Any 37 seat aircraft do not count since they are unlimited in this TA. Although I could see them, by 1/1/16, swapping 51 of their 70 seat aircraft into 76 seat aircraft and adding an additional 102 seventy-six seat aircraft in order to meet the 255 large RJ restriction (and leaving as many 50 seat aircraft as they currently have if they wanted to). Which seems to equate to a concession to their status quo without ever having to buy and operate these "gauge-gap" aircraft.

Also, the fact that their Q&A says they currently have UAX operating 16% of their flights on segments more than 900sm seem like the 20% in the TA is concessionary from the status quo. That goes along with the hub to hub restrictions in the TA as well. The Q&A says they currently have UAX operating 4% of their flights on hub to hub segments (this has to be on the legacy UAL hubs as the current CAL contract does not allow hub to hub flights to be operated by COEX), so 5% of the total UAX flights seems concessionary from the status quo as well.
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Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2004
It sounds like they are planning on getting the new C100 and in a big enough number to not care aobut the rest of the scope section.


Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2006
Or that is just a carrot dangled in their face that'll only serve to eliminate scope further


Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2004
What's the difference between a SNB and an RJ?
Per Sec 1 definitions of the TA

1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.

1-L-26 “Non-Stop” means a flight in a Market that does not include a Scheduled intervening take-off and landing.

1-L-27 “Operated in United Express Flying” or “United Express Flying” (whether or not “operated” is capitalized) when used in reference to aircraft (examples include phrases such as, “50-Seat Aircraft operated in United Express Flying” or “50-Seat Aircraft in United Express Flying”) means or refers to aircraft in service, undergoing maintenance, or used for operational spares at a United Express Carrier.

1-L-28 “Parent” refers to United Continental Holdings, Inc. (“UCH”) or any other Entity that has majority control of the Company, whether directly or indirectly, through the majority control of other Entities that have majority control of the Company.

1-L-29 “Regional Aircraft” means one (1) or more (including all) of the following aircraft (as defined below): 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft, 50-Seat Aircraft, 70-Seat Aircraft and 76-Seat Aircraft.

“37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft” means Turboprop Aircraft certificated in the United States for operations with thirty-seven (37) or fewer passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 37,000 or fewer pounds.

“50-Seat Aircraft” means aircraft certificated in the United States for fifty (50) or fewer passenger seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds. The definition of “50-Seat Aircraft” does not include “37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft.” If a 50-Seat Aircraft is certificated for fifty (50) or fewer passenger seats when first placed into service by a United Express Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a capacity in excess of fifty (50) passenger seats, this aircraft type may continue to be operated by United Express Carriers as long as all United Express Carriers operate such aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and no more than 65,000 pounds gross takeoff weight.

“70-Seat Aircraft” means aircraft configured with more than fifty (50) passenger seats but no more than seventy (70) passenger seats, and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 or fewer pounds.

“76-Seat Aircraft” means aircraft configured with more than seventy (70) passenger seats but no more than seventy-six (76) passenger seats, and certificated in the United States for ninety (90) or fewer passenger seats and with a maximum United States certificated gross takeoff weight of 86,000 or fewer pounds.

There isn't an RJ definition. Only a regional aircraft definition(excluding any props max 37 seats/37,000 lbs MGTOW)so that jets, turboprops, & geared turbofans are all included in the "regional" definition.