If you didn't like the way the election went and voted independent, this is for you

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Zero-G, Nov 10, 2016.

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  1. Nov 10, 2016 #1

    Zero-G

    Zero-G

    Zero-G

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    I've been telling folks this for a long time, but is really has happened this time. If you voted independent but would have voted Clinton if Johnson, Stein, or McMullin were not running, you're vote actually helped elect Trump. This is why there will never be a realistic chance at a 3rd party president.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/gary-johnson-jill-stein-spoiler/index.html

    How Gary Johnson and Jill Stein helped elect Donald Trump
    By Eli Watkins, CNN
    Updated 6:00 AM ET, Thu November 10, 2016 Washington (CNN)
    Neither Libertarian Party nominee Gary Johnson nor the Green Party's Jill Stein managed to make a dent in the Electoral College, but they did post a significant enough showing in several states arguably to help elect Donald Trump.
    Trump won 290 Electoral College votes to 232 for Hillary Clinton, as of Wednesday evening, with Clinton topping him in the popular vote. But had the Democrats managed to capture the bulk of third-party voters in some of the closest contests -- Wisconsin (10), Pennsylvania (20), Michigan (16) and Florida (29) -- Clinton would have defeated Trump by earning 307 Electoral College votes, enough to secure the presidency.

    The entire scenario conjures up memories of Ralph Nader's Green Party run in 2000. Nader's share of the vote in that year's razor-thin Florida contest was 1.63%, according to the final totals from the Federal Election Commission. Bush won the state by just .05%, which tipped the Electoral College in his favor. (Nader has for years denied his candidacy played a role in Bush's 2000 victory.)
    It's impossible to know how an election could have gone under hypothetical scenarios, but the Johnson campaign regularly said they thought they were pulling support equally from would-be Trump supporters and would-be Clinton voters. Stein's campaign, meanwhile, made a constant, explicit appeal to disenchanted Democrats and former supporters of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.
    If Johnson and Stein weren't in the race, it's also possible many of their supporters may have stayed home. But if about half of Johnson's supporters would have voted for Clinton over Trump, and if most of Stein's supporters broke for the Democrats, the electoral map would have been decidedly different.
    For what it's worth, both Johnson and Stein have in repeated interviews with CNN taken offense at the notion they would spoil the race.
    Johnson said he hoped his candidacy would wipe out the two-party system and, in a recent MSNBC appearance, literally held his nose shut at the mention of Clinton and Trump. Stein said she would not "sleep well" in the event of a Clinton or Trump presidency and suggested Clinton would be more likely to start a nuclear war than the current president-elect.
    However, Johnson's running mate, former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld, took a different tack. He defended Clinton regularly and argued Trump was a unique threat to the United States.
    Here's the breakdown of what might have been, based on available totals for the key states:
    Florida (29 electoral votes)
    Trump stood 119,770 votes ahead of Clinton, with 99% of the vote in Wednesday evening. The total support for Johnson and Stein was 270,026 votes -- well more than double Trump's margin of victory. CNN projected a Trump victory here.
    If half of Johnson's supporters and all of Stein's supporters had voted Clinton, it would have flipped the state.
    Michigan (16 electoral votes)
    Trump stood 11,837 votes ahead of Clinton, with 96% of the vote in Wednesday evening. The total support for Johnson and Stein was 223,707 votes -- almost 20 times more than the margin as of this writing. CNN has not yet projected a victory here.
    If half of Johnson's supporters and all of Stein's supporters had voted Clinton, it could have delivered a Democratic win here.
    Pennsylvania (20 electoral votes)
    Trump stood 68,236 votes ahead of Clinton, with 99% of the vote in Wednesday evening. The total support for Johnson and Stein was 191,565 -- almost three times Trump's margin of victory. CNN projected a Trump victory here.
    If half of Johnson's supporters and all of Stein's supporters had voted Clinton, it would have flipped the state.
    Wisconsin (10 electoral votes)
    Trump stood 27,257 votes ahead of Clinton, with 95% of the vote in Wednesday evening. The total support for Johnson and Stein was 137,422 votes -- about five times Trump's margin of victory. CNN projected a Trump victory here.
    If half of Johnson's supporters and all of Stein's supporters had voted Clinton, it would have flipped the state.
     
  2. Nov 10, 2016 #2

    TheBills

    TheBills

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    Maybe you'll listen to the third party next time huh? Or keep ignoring them and letting this happen. Your choice America. Makes me sick when people tell me I'm suppose to vote for the most corrupt candidate out there or a billionaire, other wise I'm "waisting my vote.". I always love the fear tactics though that surround us third party voters.
     
  3. Nov 10, 2016 #3

    Zero-G

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    You're an adult now, and those are the decisions you must make now. I agree it sucks you can't just make up a third party cause the other two suck, but it's how the man want's it... you know how the song goes.

    For example: while we are still represented by ALPA, I'd say this conundrum exists on various levels to folks here at XJT. Different topic, same dilemma. Do you kill the horse trying to make him brown when he's white with black spots, or ride it and make the most of it as is? How bad do you want it...

    What mattered more to you this time? For me it was who gets to pick 4 supreme court justices, and a few other things. If I want to be more idealistic and vote independent next time, maybe the consequences will not be the same. This time I knew it would to close to be ideal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  4. Nov 11, 2016 #4

    lap

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    You are assuming that people who voted for Johnson or stein would've voted for Hillary instead. I for one, had Hillary at the bottom of my list when I voted third party. I'm not completely happy but am sure glad Hillary didn't win.
     
  5. Nov 11, 2016 #5

    fazole

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    So this is the claim of CNN?! The Clinton News Network? Clinton lost her own campaign. The corruption, the cheating of Sanders as reported by the Stanford study, the support of TPP, the leaks about her arrogance, etc. did her in. I REFUSE to be hemmed in by a false narrative created by a bunch of party hacks who don't care one whit about the citizens of this country. They abandoned me a long time ago, so I have abandoned them. I'm just really surprised Trump was allowed to win by the Electoral College. There must still be some people with integrity over there. Finally, the corruption under Obama is egregious, blatant and out of hand and everyone sees it; so the Dems lost.

    Also, this may very well be a referendum on a much bigger issue: the rejection of Globalism. There was Brexit and now Trump's is elected on a platform of pulling back on the faux free trade agreements that have severely wounded the middle class and angered a whole lot of people. Clinton was was undoubtedly going to ram rod more deleterious trade deals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  6. Nov 11, 2016 #6

    w2992

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  7. Nov 11, 2016 #7

    jujk

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    A third party took my vote from Trump, not Hillary.
     
  8. Nov 11, 2016 #8

    Hercules

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    Why does billionaire = bad?
     
  9. Nov 11, 2016 #9

    TheBills

    TheBills

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    What else do i call him?
     
  10. Nov 11, 2016 #10

    PhantomHawk

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    El Jefe....
     
  11. Nov 11, 2016 #11

    TheBills

    TheBills

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    How about giant douche. Clinton can be Mrs. Turd Sandwich.
     
  12. Nov 11, 2016 #12

    Zero-G

    Zero-G

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    Trump is what Trump needs to be. That's what a successful businessman does. No grudge is held too long, no conviction is held too sacred. Until he finished his first meeting with NObama after the election, I hadn't given up the expectation that he was going to throw his hands up in the air and say "just kidding... I concede to Hillary" because of his previous association with the democratic party. I think he just associates with who he needs to get things done. Bill and Regan did the same thing, and were mostly successful.

    Not till we annex Mexico...
     
  13. Nov 11, 2016 #13

    PhantomHawk

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    That name has already been taken, and apparently passed the Hogan with flying colors.
     
  14. Nov 12, 2016 #14

    homerun

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    Ross Perot "took" the election away from Bush Sr. and gave it to Clinton. Just pointing out that this wasn't the first time a 3rd party is said to have changed an election.
     
  15. Nov 12, 2016 #15

    fazole

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    Trump is the REAL third party candidate. What other empty suit of either party would have such a bold, pro middle class 100 day plan?

    http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

    FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;
    * SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);
    * THIRD, a requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated;
    * FOURTH, a 5 year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service;

    FIFTH, a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government;
    * SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
    On the same day, I will begin taking the following 7 actions to protect American workers:
    * FIRST, I will announce my intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205


    Additionally, on the first day, I will take the following five actions to restore security and the constitutional rule of law:
    * FIRST, cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama
     
  16. Jul 16, 2018 #16

    qotsaautopilot

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    Six month check in. What do we think now?
     
  17. Jul 16, 2018 #17

    Read-Only

    Read-Only

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    Wrong forum, that’s what we think. The Pipe is dead, even for relevant topics.....and this isn’t one of those.
     
  18. Jul 19, 2018 #18

    Zero-G

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    I think CNN has shown me how much I underestimated how biased on the side of insanity the media can be, and that there is no limit on legal and ethical license they will take with the news to twist our opinions. What is happening now is way more sophisticated than the book 1984. I think it is more akin to the German interference in European politics prior to WWI ans WWII at Ethernet speed. The only truth you can believe is what is within 50ft of you while you are paying attention. Whether you think Hillary is keeping NW Arkansas green from all the buried bodies to hide the family secrets, or Trump is filling his pockets at the demise of logic and reason, the only truth you know depends on what news channel you watch.
     

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