For Real.....

Discussion in 'The Pipe' started by RMilby, Dec 30, 2007.

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  1. Dec 30, 2007 #1

    RMilby

    RMilby

    RMilby

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    I don't give a rat's *** what the AIM says, you are not gonna get "Climb and maintain, One Thousand Six Hundred" when you go missed in IAH on visual approach.

    Give me a break book worms. You brief, "visual backed up by the ILS"...then you say "set 1600 (1500AGL pattern altitude for jets)...". Do you really think they will give you that in a class B ANYWHERE we fly??? "Hey Jetlink1234, since you went missed, turn right or left, climb to pattern altitude, and I will call your base..."

    I know what you are getting at but whatever....
     
  2. Dec 30, 2007 #2

    xjetfo

    xjetfo

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    been here two and a half years and have never heard anyone say that
     
  3. Dec 30, 2007 #3

    DMP9679

    DMP9679

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    What's your plan?

    I just set what is already on the plates.

    Either way who cares...

    Somebody crap in your file today?!!!:grin:
     
  4. Dec 30, 2007 #4

    XjetFD

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    So in the interest of standardization ... we'll all just set something different and some will refer to an instrument procedure on a visual missed? Not sure exactly what your getting at ... Granted, unless you lose comm, tower will have further instructions for hdg and alt as soon as you inform them of the go-around (kinda hard to "miss" a visual), and it most likely will be 3000 or 4000 to come back around in the sequence.

    But ... let's talk the lost comm ... which is the reason for the standardization of setting pattern alt for a visual "missed" approach. Let's say as soon as you suck the gear up you loose comm ... now you climb to 3000 or 4000 (the ILS "missed approach procedure"). What next, head for the missed approach fix on an ILS plate after receiving a "visual" approach clearance. And if you do, what the heck do you do once you get into the hold? Sure ATC will figure out where you're headed ... but ... then the guessing game begins as to what you're going to do next - squawk 1200?

    So how 'bout we set pattern alt, go-around for whatever reason, loose comm, fly one patch around the pattern and see the pretty green light, land and head for the crew room ...

    1500 AGL is the traffic pattern alt for a jet - so that's what we use...
     
  5. Dec 30, 2007 #5

    kidicarus5897

    kidicarus5897

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    And if you put a procedure missed approach altitude in the selector, which procedure?? The ILS? The LOC? The VOR? The GPS? what do you think ATC would expect you to climb to? I say pattern altitude is a good start, unless a special or terrain says different. When we are cleared for a vis, and back it up with the ILS, that does not include the ILS missed approach or the missed approach altitude, granted, it is a guarenteed safe altitude. They climbed us up to 5K the other day after WS in Ontario, so I guess it is a crap-shoot. Either way, it is not all that hard to select a new altitude.............
     
  6. Dec 30, 2007 #6

    KoolAidDrinker

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    Could you please wear a sign around your neck stating the above so we can all keep a safe distance or at least have our ASAP's ready. D**BF**K!

    Don't tell me, you've been here for 6 mos and got this s**t down.
     
  7. Dec 30, 2007 #7

    Texan Aviator

    Texan Aviator

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    Never heard that one...

    We went missed in ewr today as a matter of fact due to a brake issue. Climb 2000' runway heading off rwy 11.
     
  8. Dec 30, 2007 #8

    Happy Camper

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    They climb you to 2000 on a visual go-around in IAH...
     
  9. Dec 30, 2007 #9

    Matthew Kupetz

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    If we're talking about what is most likely going to happen, then we all know that ATC is most likely going to give us immediate instructiosn, especially if you ask adamantly. I know, I know, I know... it can happen, but I've never done a missed in almost 11 yrs that ATC didn't tell me what to do (and doing OE I do my fair share), although I always call the missed right away. Before I talk about any of the above mentioned plans, I ALWAYS brief that ATC will be option #1, so the above discussion is really about plan B (or C since no one plans to go missed).

    Also, consider that if they are doing a visual to one runway and an ILS to another parallel (CLE or sometimes IAH), that the published missed on the ILS chart was designed with the idea that there would probably NOT be someone on the visual to the other runway so the published missed may indeed conflict with the visual on the other runway. Not an iron clad plan even if you've been technically "cleared for the ILS." Since they are doing visuals, ATC might have a totally different plan that takes into consideration both runways (that would not be used simultaneously when IFR) and it may have to be different than the published missed for the ILS guy. In CLE in good weather they use both 24R and L fairly often, but the missed on the two different ILS's is EXACTLY THE SAME! (since they can't both be used simultaneously IFR, not considering the LDA's of course.) Not good if both go missed and the guy cleared for the visual does the ILS missed!

    Again, getting a hold of ATC is paramount to me, and in some cases even if you've been cleared for an ILS. And before you say lost comms.... sure, AFTER that its ok to talk about all the above stuff and the next progessive plan of attack, but at least if you remember ATC as option #1, it knocks having to resort to the other stuff down a notch to a lessor likelyhood if you think about it.

    One other note, usually ATC seperates missed people with altitude as much as laterally. I doubt many published missed instructions have holds 1500 ft above the ground. Therefore, pattern altitude on a visual missed will probably keep you lower than a lot of other traffic, and probably, in the scenario above, the ILS guy on a published missed.
     
  10. Dec 30, 2007 #10

    feetdry

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    thats right i got 2000 every time i went around in iah.
     
  11. Dec 30, 2007 #11

    mszluka

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    Interesting, because we were instructed to "re-enter the pattern for a left downwind" after going missed approach in Newark. We climbed to 1500 feet and flew a modified box pattern for a visual approach to runway 29.

    Go figure. Class B airspace.
     
  12. Dec 30, 2007 #12

    hokiepilot

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    Amen, somebody actually exercising common sense. This is exactly the reason you are to use pattern altitude on a visual go around. I am so glad someone actually made a logical argument against this other guy's rant. Well done!
     
  13. Dec 30, 2007 #13

    Ryan J. More

    Ryan J. More

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    I went missed once on 27 in IAH due to traffic that was still on the runway (737 that decided he was gonna go full length at 30 knots without asking tower). The controller was miffed since she let him in on 27 when he was supposed to be on 26L and he obviously was only concerned with himself and getting to his gate faster. Anyway, after a brief dig at him she came back and said how about 15L? I thought it would be cool so we accepted and she told us to climb to pattern alt and make right traffic for 15L, cleared to land. We were on the ground in a couple of minutes and my poor FO was freaking out a bit.

    Sometimes it is nice to turn off all the stuff and just fly the airplane! Severe clear and the right side wanted to get out plates for 15L, etc. I just said I'm turning all this stuff off, runway is right there, let's land on it.
     
  14. Dec 30, 2007 #14

    Puck

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    Ohh I always love the "..why don't you fly exactly like me?" threads..

    Anyway, I brief the missed approach alt for initinal climb alt, because it coincides with the MSA. And knowing myself, IF the we have a problem I am not going to be looking outside for towers and cra@p. (plan for the worst hope for the best)

    But hey it dosn't really seem to an ongoing problem so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

    Jerry Bartelson
     
  15. Dec 30, 2007 #15

    hdaniel

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    Happy Camper , How you doing? Remember I told you I was A lurker not a contributor to the site, but just could not stay out of this one.

    I called Houston Tower and gave the guy the address to pipe here told him it was funny stuff. My hope's being the Tower Guy might want chime in, I' m one that expect's 2000' and radar vector's in Houston because I have always got that, but I brief RW heading and pattern ALT . Because that's what the AIM says. So what would you do if you lost COM RM on a go around in Houston or anywhere for that matter. OH by the way, the tower has lost all power in Houston before it was quite a mess.

    Back to Lurking

    Hoby Daniel
     
  16. Dec 30, 2007 #16

    Happy Camper

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    Hey Hoby!

    I've gone around in IAH after a visual approach 3 or 4 times. Each time they gave me 2000' on the go-around. So that's what I set if they cleared us for the visual. The FO is free to set whatever they want. (it varies usually, sometimes pattern alt, sometimes 2000, sometimes the ILS missed alt) - I set 2000 because that is what I am expecting. Kind of like how I expect heading 115 or 120 after departure on 15L while doing the BPT4.

    2000' is a nice altitude. It keeps you 2000' below the departing flow of traffic and above the pipeline people. If, in the VERY unlikely event of a loss of radios or electricity at the tower occurs, I'd gladly make the 4 clicks of the altitude knob to level off at 1600 feet. That is, like you said, what the AIM says after all. :cool:
     
  17. Dec 30, 2007 #17

    Brit

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    Gone around off of 29 at EWR a couple of times, each time up to pattern alt with a hard left into the downwind and a short approach to 04L. Boy was I glad we briefed pattern alt for a go around. It's tough to level off when you're climbing at 4000ft a minute plus and you're not expecting a level off because someone who knew better told you it'd never happen.
     
  18. Dec 30, 2007 #18

    hdaniel

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    HC after reading my post again, I think it sounds like it's directed at you. Not the case at all , it's at rmilby.....if you have not been here long enough to be clear for visuals, enter on down wind, go around's with right or left hand traffic re-cleared to land your living a charmed fly'n life.

    HD
     
  19. Dec 30, 2007 #19

    judge

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    i have had the fortune of being on 7 line checks this year. one checkairman twice. him and a few other guys were adamant about setting "pattern altitude" for the missed if it is a visual.
    thats all nice and good for school house stuff, but for the few times i have gone around in the real world it has always gone down like this:

    us: going around!
    tower: roger climb to xxxx feet, heading xxx.

    my opinion is: "man i dont care" (best bob and tom impersonation)
     
  20. Dec 30, 2007 #20

    pa31350pilot

    pa31350pilot

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    Everyone brings up some very valid points, but we shouldn't get so wrapped up in the automation. Remember, sometimes we need to take a step backwards. What I'm saying is just fly the airplane! If you are doing a go around, by the time you get to 1500 to 2000 feet, the other guy has had time to change the altitude. If not, just level the plane. I certainly like the flight director, but I can fly the plane just fine without it too.
     

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