There is no god. - Page 94

Fats Schindee · 03-25-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2percent

Ok so the perpose of my entire life now as a Crhistan is to glorify God and bring people to Christ.... and i dont want to affend you at all that is not my job...

I have no issue with your wanting to glorify your God, but I think that in the second half of your purpose there lies a possible conflict for you:

Unless you think that your "purpose" has nothing to do with your "job" (which I'm thinking that it does, in the sense that you are using the two terms above), you cannot always fulfill both of those objectives above. I mean, to many people, trying to "bring them to Christ" will offend them, which you say you don't want to do. I'm sure you try and do it in a "non-offensive" way (i.e. talking/preaching to them in a civilized manner about it, not clubbing them over the head and forcibly baptizing them), but to many people just the idea of you trying to change their beliefs is offensive...

Yariv · 03-25-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fats Schindee

... but to many people just the idea of you trying to change their beliefs is offensive...

I agree, if you qualify what 'trying to change their belief' means. to discuss it in person or here, is not offensive. personally I welcome conversion attempts because they raise questions, that if able to answer, my own beliefs are strengthened, and if unable, then the need to abandon my own beliefs or modify them becomes apparent. it's not offensive, it's learning.

if you try to create laws based on religion, laws that affect people who do not subscribe to this religion, this is offensive. this country is not based on religion. the constitution forbids a religious basis for lawmaking. yes I know it says 'in god we trust' and 'under god' and all that, but that's just lip service. the content of the constitution, bill or rights, declaration of independence are intentionally free of any religious basis. and so to try to contaminate public education with religion is offensive. to not sell liquor on sunday is baffling. to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body is ludicrous. and it's not just this country. for missionaries to go to africa and tell the population (where AIDS is rampant in 70% of the population in some places) that condoms don't work, is offensive (I personally have friends that have done this!) for pat robertson to tell new orleans residents that katrina was their fault is offensive. for any human to say "I don't need to understand" is offensive, in my opinion, because it's unnatural and pitiful (no offense!) these are some of the down sides. what is the up side? it makes you feel better? gives meaning to your life?

Fats Schindee · 03-25-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yariv

I agree, if you qualify what 'trying to change their belief' means. to discuss it in person or here, is not offensive.

I concur. I enjoy these discussions as well, and love thinking about these kinds of questions. But for some, there is a fine line between healthy debate and just plain badgering, annoying, and offending. And there are others out there that don't even want to have the subject broached at all... that, to them, is offensive (think of the discussion Len just mentioned with his family, how when his wife even mentioned atheism they balked and sounded offended).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yariv

if you try to create laws based on religion, laws that affect people who do not subscribe to this religion, this is offensive. this country is not based on religion. the constitution forbids a religious basis for lawmaking. yes I know it says 'in god we trust' and 'under god' and all that, but that's just lip service. the content of the constitution, bill or rights, declaration of independence are intentionally free of any religious basis. and so to try to contaminate public education with religion is offensive. to not sell liquor on sunday is baffling. to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body is ludicrous. and it's not just this country. for missionaries to go to africa and tell the population (where AIDS is rampant in 70% of the population in some places) that condoms don't work, is offensive (I personally have friends that have done this!) for pat robertson to tell new orleans residents that katrina was their fault is offensive. for any human to say "I don't need to understand" is offensive, in my opinion, because it's unnatural and pitiful (no offense!) these are some of the down sides. what is the up side? it makes you feel better? gives meaning to your life?

Well said. Those kinds of things are more offensive, IMHO, than someone trying to change my (and only my) beliefs...

Fats Schindee · 03-27-2008, 02:04 PM

Here is an interesting Newsweek article/interview about a current particle physics experiment, and the relationship between science and religion...

Will Physicists Find God? | Newsweek International Edition | Newsweek.com

Wes Mantooth · 03-27-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fats Schindee

Here is an interesting Newsweek article/interview about a current particle physics experiment, and the relationship between science and religion...

Will Physicists Find God? | Newsweek International Edition | Newsweek.com

Good article. Thanks for posting.

Also great signature. Edward Abbey is one of my favorite authors.

Fats Schindee · 03-27-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth

Good article. Thanks for posting.

Also great signature. Edward Abbey is one of my favorite authors.

Thanks... I haven't read anything by him yet, but was reading about him and came across the quote and liked it. What would you recommend my reading first of his?

Wes Mantooth · 03-27-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fats Schindee

Thanks... I haven't read anything by him yet, but was reading about him and came across the quote and liked it. What would you recommend my reading first of his?

I would recommend starting with Desert Solitaire. Abbey is sort of a mix of Henry Miller and Henry David Thoreau (also two of my favorites esp. Miller). He gives an interesting take on life.

Red Swingline · 03-27-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fats Schindee

Here is an interesting Newsweek article/interview about a current particle physics experiment, and the relationship between science and religion...

Will Physicists Find God? | Newsweek International Edition | Newsweek.com

That is a pretty interesting article, and I've been curious about the Higgs Boson for ages so I'm excited by this. What's odd is the turn of the article - obviously more about whether religion can finally be disproved verses what the observation may allow for.

It's also a great example of the rift that lies between the two sides. I'll take one quote of Weinberg's:

Quote:

People who expect to find evidence of divine action in nature, in the origin of the universe or in the laws that govern matter, are probably going to be disappointed.

For most, it's the laws that govern matter and all we see around us that DO offer evidence of diving action. Everything we discover continues to point in that direction. But, anyway, it's should be interesting.

Suave · 03-27-2008, 05:52 PM

Yariv.....how's it going. How is CAL? Have to say, kinda miss seeing ya around the school house and in the crew room.

Question....I'm wondering why you would say that "Under God", and "In God We trust", is just lip service; that our country was not founded under religion. I am by no means a history buff, but didn't the very men whom signed the The Constitution do so "Under God". I think that many if not the majority of those individuals were Christians weren't they? Why does our currency say "In God We Trust?" There must have been some kinda of Faith in God for these things to happen, right?

Now you are a very intelligent man and a friend of mine, so I mean no disrespect of course. But those that are non believers seem to be " I haven't seen, so I don't believe". I can tell you that we as Christians believe, God does and Will make himself known to everyone in the World. However it is up to them to believe and accept him through Faith. I know that you have read or studied the Bible. Do you not feel anything when you read the Bible, or are they just words and stories to you. I pray, (because I believe in God) before I read and ask that God would reveal to me what it is that I should take away from what I am about to read. We Christians call it the living word, and that any question one would have about anything can be found in God's Word. It applies just as much now as it did when it was written. The stories and testimonies written then can be applied to our everyday living here on Earth even now. I don't believe that they are just stories, I believe that they are truths.

I only ask because I know that you don't get defensive and can have an adult discussion about these things. I too enjoy talking with believers and non believers to strengthen what I believe to be the truth. Have you always been a non believer? I know that when you and I flew together, you told me where you were from, so I can only assume that Christianity was part of the environment that you may have been a part of in your surroundings. What was it that made you decide, there is no God? Just curious?

Take care my friend and safe flying,
Rick Childers

Sorry for any misspellings or bad grammar, I don't claim to be an English teacher

Wes Mantooth · 03-27-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

Question....I'm wondering why you would say that "Under God", and "In God We trust", is just lip service; that our country was not founded under religion. I am by no means a history buff, but didn't the very men whom signed the The Constitution do so "Under God". I think that many if not the majority of those individuals were Christians weren't they? Why does our currency say "In God We Trust?" There must have been some kinda of Faith in God for these things to happen, right?

The Pledge of Allegiance added the term "under god" in 1954. The original pledge was written in 1892 and included the original term "one nation, indivisible". The pledge was written more than a hundred years after the the Constitution was written.

The term "In God We Trust" was added to union coins during the Civil War in 1864. Once again almost hundred years after the Constitution was written. In 1957, it was added to paper currency.

The majority of the US founding fathers were not Christian, but a mix of Christians, Deists and Freemasons. There is no mention of God, Jesus, Christianity or a Supreme Being in the Constitution, and it is not because they forgot to add it.

The Declaration of Independence was written mostly by Deist Thomas Jefferson (who if you read any history book would know he vehemently hated Christianity). It only mentions a "Creator" and "nature's God" which is Deist in nature.

The only legal document from the U.S. Government that actually mentions Christianity by name was the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796. Written during George Washington's Presidency, Secretary of State Timothy Pickering endorse it as did John Adams. It was approved by the Senate unanimously. It states in Article 11.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You will find the reason "under God" and "in God we Trust" was added in the fifties was a response to Communism and the rise of "new" Christians under Billy Graham.