There is no god. - Page 7

C130Loadm · 10-14-2006, 09:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Nova

Quote:

Originally Posted by C130Loadm

I am well aware of all that you wrote. It is precisely the details that are important, like the detail about Christ.

What, that the detail that there many parallels between Christ and Mohammad? It comes down to my prophet is better than your prophet or my book that is the word of God is better than your book that is the word of God.

So how is your book guaranteed to be THE book versus that of Islam? (and don't quote your own source to prove that point).

Where have I said that one religion is more correct than the other? Please quote where I say that in any of my post.

As far as the parallels between Christ and Mohammad, I am quite interested to see what they are...in your opinion and based on your knowledge of the subject.

Fats Schindee · 10-14-2006, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scab hater

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fliguy2772

Well, it's not about forcing anyone's beliefs on anyone. There's truth and non-truth. There is a God, He did send His Son to die on the cross for the world's sins, and everyone is free to either believe that or not. On judgement day, everyone will be accountable for himself. God gives us all freewill, and people can use it to believe Him and in His plan for the salvation of mankind or not..............

...........What is mindblowing for me is that many people would rather believe that the earth, solar system, and the universe for that matter formed by pure random chance. That all living things on the earth formed by pure chance and luck, and that we evolved from single cell creatures up through ape-like creatures to what we are today. Have you any idea how complex the human body is?! Random chance? Yeah right. Would you believe that given 10 million, heck I'll give you a billion years, that a 747 could form on it's own in a field? Sounds absurd, right? The human body is a million times more complex.

Many people believe in things like carbon dating, yet know nothing about it or how it works. They are more willing to believe some scientist or group of scientists who will tell them that world is such and such years old. Many are willing to take on faith that the scientists know what they're doing and are willing to just believe them (Oh, they're scientists. They must know what they're doing). Have you personally run lab tests on anything? Do you know for sure that what you read in National Geographic is correct? Yet, I am stupid and naive for believing in the Word of God.

God, for His reasons, chose faith (believing without seeing the tangible) to be what pleases Him. The bible says that God chose the foolish things of this world, so that no flesh would glory in His presence. That makes sense to me... so no one can walk before God and boast how great they are based on heavenly principles. So you want tangible proof? The bible says that the world around you should be enough (the sky, the oceans, the stars, sun, moon, etc.) to know that this all couldn't have happened all by random chance................bah, blah, blah

The problem with your assumption is you have to ignore, in its entirety, nano-particle physics and the fact that scientists manipulate molecular particles on a daily basis to create new and interesting particles. The only difference between a diamond and the graphite in a pencil is the arrangement of the atoms.

Existing discoveries serve as the foundation for other scientists to build on. Science is cumulative and there lies the great tension between science and religion: religious creeds are static. Their foundation fixed, sacred relics preserved with high fidelity and passed down through the minds of their carriers from generation to generation over the centuries.

The funny thing about science is that you could teach Newton or Aristotle or Copernicus or any of the ancient gurus a lesson. Any one of them might have been smarter than any one of us, but we happen to know more than they did about the world and how everything works in it. Science advances cumulatively and, since we live later, even the nonscientists among us know much more about a lot of things than the great scientists of past epochs. It's that simple. Sure, aristotle could walk into a philosophy discussion and hold his own but in a modern day science class he'd be lost.

Here are some basic things we all know that he'd be shocked by:

1. the earth orbits the sun

2. there are more than four elements and none of them are earth, water, fire, or air

3. and we could forget about trying to explain electricity, magnetism, lasers, transistors, microprocessors, solar cells, quantum physics, or carbon nanotubes.

The peacefull coexistance of science and religion is an illusion. They are imcompatible and mutually exclusive. The scientific method is antithetical to religious doctirne and even non-theistic mysticism. Science rests upon testable hypothesis, repeatable results, empirical evidence, reason, experimentation, skepticism, and challenging established beliefs and conventional wisdoms.

Religion rests upon the unquestioning faith of its believers. Religious narratives contain beliefs about the creation of the universe, the creation of man, and concepts like afterlife or reincarnation. Science asserts itself not in value-laden beliefs but in factual understandings of the world and mechanisms and phenomena by which it operates, stripped of any theological significance and it lives by this creed: "TAKE NO ONE'S WORD FOR IT".

It's been suggested that religion exists to explain the unexplainable. Some humans feel cognitive dissonance in the absence of explanations. Part of the lure of spirituality and religion is that they appear to fill in the blanks in the questions where science has yet to answer. If you must fill in the blanks with religion than do it privately in your own home or church.

Science by its very nature is open and strengthened by the scrutiny of the public. But the integrity and usefulness of science is threatened whenever it is attacked on idealogical grounds. Thomas Jefferson said, "We are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it" (T Jefferson)

Einstein is often misreported to have believed in god. In his own words, "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systmtically repeated....If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"

(A. Einstein)

Many scientists have presented mathmatical models on our existence and the possibility of life in other galaxies as a function of random chance and chaos.

Hawkings, Sagan, Einstein, Lametre(a monk I might add), Wolfe.......shall I go on. The refusal of of the religiously blinded to see merit in those models does not mean the models are not there or are in-supportable.

Weigh those theories against the scripture which still says the earth is the center of the universe and everything orbits around the earth in round paths (copernican theory) and I'll stick with science--growing knowledge,

rather than religion--static belief in blind faith.

Very well said! I was thinking the same thing, but you stated it much more lucidly than I could have (especially after a few glasses of red wine - the blood of God! - tonight). Cheers.

Fats Schindee · 10-15-2006, 12:07 AM

I'm going to merge the "Violence, Death, Destruction" thread into this one (not officially, since I'm not a moderator, but you know what I mean), since they are both about the same thing now...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fliguy2772

Fats Schindee:

It's not my job to persuade or convince you. Only to spread the truth and share the message. It's up to you and everyone else to decide for themselves.

Truth is truth. Plain and simple. It is not truth "for me", it is the truth... period. You can decide to believe it or not. It's up to you. Be aware that you will be held accountable someday for it, is all. I pray you make the right one.

Okay... so tell me how you know all this is the "truth". I disagree that "Truth is truth. Plain and simple." It's not really that simple (if it was, I doubt we'd be having this discussion right now).

I mean, maybe our definitions of truth are different, maybe not. You sound like you adhere to the correspondence theory of truth in this matter (i.e. if something is true, it accurately represents objective reality). I think that, in this case, what you believe is more of a constructivist theory (i.e. truth is constructed by social processes, is historically and culturally specific, and that it is in part shaped through the power struggles within a community) and/or a consensus theory (i.e. truth is whatever is agreed upon, or in some versions, might come to be agreed upon, by some specified group) of truth.

I, myself, am more of a relativist when in comes to any kind of absolute truth (I say "absolute" because I don't believe that "truth is truth". There are many different definitions and views about this one little word...). I think that for you, God and everything you believe about him/her/it are true. But I don't believe the same thing. My ultimate truth in this matter differs from yours. It's all relative to the person doing the believing.

Im glad that you say that you are not trying to persuade or convince me. I appreciate that. I'm not trying to make you stop believing what you believe either. But by you saying you are trying to "spread the truth and share the message", where does that leave me and my beliefs? You must assume they are untrue, if they do not agree with what you see as true, no? If you feel like praying for me will make you feel better about the world, than by all means, do so. But I don't believe that I "will be held accountable some day" for not believing the same thing that you believe. To me, it is not the "truth".

Which brings me back to my original question: How do you know that all this is the truth? Because a book written a couple millenia ago tells you that it is? Because some guy with a microphone tells you every Sunday that it is? Because your parents told you that it is? Because God told you that it is? Or because it just "is"? Just wondering...

10-15-2006, 12:15 AM

Trying to reason with a religious fanatic is tantamount to deer hunting with an accordion.

Pete, I hope if you have children you give them a chance to live free and happy rather than burden them with all the "crap" you are spewing. I fear they will be brain washed in the same manner those idiots in the middle east send their children to die as human bombs. Does it really matter if they die as a bomb or their brain is snipped by fear, intimidation, and mental indentured servitude.

Organised religion is only about one thing: POWER

.....and if you still believe in religion in this modern age then you are looking for answers you will never find because you simply don't have the mental acuity to think independent of the garbage clogging your brain. You are followers in the worst way. That is, BLIND FOLLOWERS (or as we like to call them in the US--Fanatics).

People spewing the scripture and embracing religion is kind of like a politician who keeps on claiming he is not corrupt.

The facade is usually covering up a den of hippocrisy at best and at worst is used as a crutch to hobble through a life of excuses in the belief that "god" loves us all and will forgive.

I'm sure that's what the priests were thinking when they were jack hammering all those little boys and girls.

Freaks leading freaks. Enough said.

Nova · 10-15-2006, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C130Loadm

As far as the parallels between Christ and Mohammad, I am quite interested to see what they are...in your opinion and based on your knowledge of the subject.

Both are the founding prophet for 2 major religions. Both are founded on teachings traced back to Abraham. Both believe in the same God but the Muslims view Jesus as a prophet but not their God. Both of them and their followers were persecuted at the time due to their beliefs (and since for that matter). Both were/are considered mouth pieces for the word of God here on Earth. Both had their teachings/words turned into best selling books (not Jonathan Fry) Both became more popular in death. Both have had quite a few wars fought on their behalf.

So either Jesus was the Son of God or he was a prophet preceding Mohammad. Same God just a different family tree.

Aviator27J · 10-15-2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scab hater

Trying to reason with a religious fanatic is tantamount to deer hunting with an accordion.

Heh heh...that's one way to kill a deer. But isn't that on the humane level of using flash lights or machine guns? :P

FlyXJTnow · 10-15-2006, 02:25 AM

Religion....It's Christmas for grown ups.

You may argue that God is real. What if I want to believe that Santa is real? Can you prove to me that he's not?

Something to think about. I would also go easy on faith. Faith is what you throw out when you don't have facts to back up your claims.

Talk amongst yourselves.

10-15-2006, 01:52 PM

I see that my R6 implant is still functioning properly. Yes, my thetans, keep arguing! BWAHAHAHA!!

10-15-2006, 02:09 PM

One thing that has always gotten me is that in my experience, those who seem to have some bug about Christianity are the same ones (typically, not always) that demand "tolerance" in everything they believe.

I always think of the movie "Contact" when this conversation comes up, as it seems to often (why are so many so defensive about this, by the way? Guilty consciences out there?).

There was a scene where Mathew McConaughey was talking to Jodie Foster, who's character had lost her father when she was a child. McConaughey is challenged by Foster in a similar conversation about his faith. She said that she needs proof. He asked, "Did you love your father?" She's taken back by the question and says with reserved solumness, "Yes, very much" He looks at her after giving her a second to digest the question and says, "Prove it."

When you know God, you just know He's there. Through and through. Kind'a like looking at one of those pictures you have to stare at to see the 3D image. While others are staring at the same picture insisting that nothing's there, others who have seen the image are there with absolute no question about what's there and has been there all along.

He's there for those who seek Him, but nobody can be forced to seek nor find Him, as Christians have learned in a bloody history and as Muslims are obviously going to figure out for themselves. You can't force faith. You can get someone to be obidient, but that's only the product of fear if it's forced, not faith.

But as clear as the image of that 3D picture, once seen, when you find Him, you'll wonder how you could have had this conversation.

I love the Lord, but like the disobedient child, I'm far from the perfect, though the child equally loves his/her parents.

You'll never find Him, though, through challenging and demanding someone else to lay out the proof for you. You'll only find Him when you genuinely seek Him, with an open mind and heart.

Some will argue that Christians do not have open minds and hearts, but I beg to differ. Who I am came from change and openness to the fact that that the way I used to be was flawed. If I were closed minded, I'd still be the way I used to be.

By the way, I'm not implying that I'm no longer flawed, but I've learned that every, single flaw I have is an example of how I'm not like God. The more like God I endeavor to be is an effort to correct every flaw I have.

akosht · 10-15-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyXJTnow

Religion....It's Christmas for grown ups.

You may argue that God is real. What if I want to believe that Santa is real? Can you prove to me that he's not?

Something to think about. I would also go easy on faith. Faith is what you throw out when you don't have facts to back up your claims.

Talk amongst yourselves.

A good book for anyone mildly interested in this discussion - Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonus.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Dialogue...e=UTF8&s=books