Originally Posted by Lenzilla

I will not further reply to the posts on this particular thread because it sucks the life right out of me, and I''m not going to change anyone's mind. I have no argument with anyone here as to whether or not god exists. Frankly, I just don't care to join that argument.

That said, as an atheist and I am sick and tired and fed up beyond belief with people who think that I somehow have a less than well developed set of morals, sense of right from wrong, blah, blah, blah. Furthermore, that you think that life is pointless for us poor lost atheists is sickening to say the least. What is the point of living, you ask? Is my family enough of a reason for you? Fortunately, I don't have to justify that to you or anyone else. Are you calling my life pointless because I don't believe in the things you believe. This is why (not as an atheist, but as a human being) I have a problem with all of this.

I reread a post by Rick Childers a while back in this thread and he outright said the life of the person he replied to must be empty and hollow because he didn't believe. I don't feel that way at all, and no thanks, I don't need any one to pray for me or show me how much fuller my life can be-I do not at all feel as though my life is vacuous or in any way unfulfilled. Who the hell is anyone here-yes including you Rick (I was angered by that post when I first saw it-should have replied then)-to make such judgments about my life?

And what is this "worse than atheists" CRAP. How have atheists become the benchmark for determining good from evil, right from wrong, moral from immoral. I have had many conversations with pilots who turn out to be atheist, and each one happens to be a wonderful, thinkning, caring, moral person. I guess they all go home and kill kittens when no one is looking. Ask anyone at this company that knows me-my name is Len Civitano-ask them if I fly around acting "evil" or if my crazy atheist ways are kept in check only by the laws that all of you wonderful, halo wearing christians have set up for me and my cult of heathens. I may have my own set of morals, but at least I'm not a hypocrite. I watch people pick and choose which parts of biblical "law" they feel is right for them and which parts to discard, then go out and call themselves "people of god." I have several Catholic friends that are divorced. I think we can all agree on some level that if someone is being abused, then certainly we may be able to condone divorce. But what if things just aren't working out. Are they not viloating Catholic "law?" Did they not knowingly pick and choose which rules to obey and which to discard based on their own circumstances. At least I don't judge them for it.

You're right Kailuaboy, no one is perfect, least of all me. However, to discard rules placed at your feet because you feel they are outdated, no longer apply, or just plain aren't for you makes me wonder, who granted you that authority? Are you not breaking the "law" intentionally. To err is human, but to break laws intentionally and knowingly is a crime, right (sin in your world)? Do you then atone for your sins? Since you asked such pointed questions of us atheists, do you go to confession and wash your hands clean of your wrongdoing, do you bother to atone at all? Is your conscience clean once you confess? Mine wouldn't be-I'd be asking myself why I KNOWINGLY sinned to begin with and continue to-I wouldn't be a very good Christian. I only have to go as far as premarital sex to begin my list offenses. Did you confess each and every time only to go out and do it again and again. Is that not breaking your biblical law? Or does that part not apply to you? Should you continue to be forgiven for it-a few Hail Marys and your on your way? Maybe you were a virgin until the day you got married, but there's someone out there that fits this bill. Maybe this rule doesn't exist within your brand of Christianity, but there's at least one that believes it to be a sin.

Incidentally, you follow biblical law, you say. Is that a valid defense or justification for speeding tickets, running a red light, busting 250 below 10,000, etc. What makes you follow those rules, or any others for that matter when they aren't a direct result of the ten commandments or biblical interpretation? Jesus didn't have cars or planes. Does that mean that I follow our man made rules better than you. Would that then mean that I contribute to the stability of things where you are the harbinger of chaos?

There is evidence to support the theory that "right and wrong" are hardwired into us, that from an evolutionary standpoint, a civilization that is evil simply can not procreate and survive. They'd kill each other off. We can argue the validity of this all day long-and I know that can take us down many roads-in fact, I realize that very statement could be used in support of your case (yup, the world is killing itself off these days-but then, isn't there a christian at the helm who has stated publicly that he's doing god's work?). But the fact remains that I still have a well developed sense of morals.

Some would claim that it's because my folks or grandparents started off with church, and got passed down to me. Well, if that's the case, I'm glad we diverged, because I have seen so much bigotry, racism, judgmentalism (is that a word?), etc. that I am on occasion embarrassed by my own family and their god fearing ways.

Kailuaboy, this is not a direct attack on you, honestly. I have no ill will towards anyone. Religion, in my opinion, gets undue respect. I have no problems with you or your life-I'm quite content to live and let live, but I lash out quickly when "the point of my life" is directly attacked or when my choices are judged by others who don't even know me or what my sense of morality entails. Seldom if ever are atheists afforded the same respect and courtesy. People ask me so often in casual conversation what religion I am-you should see the difference in how they treat me when I tell them. I don't treat people differently based on, really, anything-other than their attitude towards me. Please just realize that because people don't have the same beliefs as you, doesn't mean that they aren't wonderful people. But then I shouldn't have to tell a good Christian that, right?

Originally Posted by Lenzilla

And what is this "worse than atheists" CRAP. How have atheists become the benchmark for determining good from evil, right from wrong, moral from immoral. I have had many conversations with pilots who turn out to be atheist, and each one happens to be a wonderful, thinkning, caring, moral person. I guess they all go home and kill kittens when no one is looking. Ask anyone at this company that knows me-my name is Len Civitano-ask them if I fly around acting "evil" or if my crazy atheist ways are kept in check only by the laws that all of you wonderful, halo wearing christians have set up for me and my cult of heathens. I may have my own set of morals, but at least I'm not a hypocrite. I watch people pick and choose which parts of biblical "law" they feel is right for them and which parts to discard, then go out and call themselves "people of god." I have several Catholic friends that are divorced. I think we can all agree on some level that if someone is being abused, then certainly we may be able to condone divorce. But what if things just aren't working out. Are they not viloating Catholic "law?" Did they not knowingly pick and choose which rules to obey and which to discard based on their own circumstances. At least I don't judge them for it.

You're right Kailuaboy, no one is perfect, least of all me. However, to discard rules placed at your feet because you feel they are outdated, no longer apply, or just plain aren't for you makes me wonder, who granted you that authority? Are you not breaking the "law" intentionally. To err is human, but to break laws intentionally and knowingly is a crime, right (sin in your world)? Do you then atone for your sins? Since you asked such pointed questions of us atheists, do you go to confession and wash your hands clean of your wrongdoing, do you bother to atone at all? Is your conscience clean once you confess? Mine wouldn't be-I'd be asking myself why I KNOWINGLY sinned to begin with and continue to-I wouldn't be a very good Christian. I only have to go as far as premarital sex to begin my list offenses. Did you confess each and every time only to go out and do it again and again. Is that not breaking your biblical law? Or does that part not apply to you? Should you continue to be forgiven for it-a few Hail Marys and your on your way? Maybe you were a virgin until the day you got married, but there's someone out there that fits this bill. Maybe this rule doesn't exist within your brand of Christianity, but there's at least one that believes it to be a sin.

Incidentally, you follow biblical law, you say. Is that a valid defense or justification for speeding tickets, running a red light, busting 250 below 10,000, etc. What makes you follow those rules, or any others for that matter when they aren't a direct result of the ten commandments or biblical interpretation? Jesus didn't have cars or planes. Does that mean that I follow our man made rules better than you. Would that then mean that I contribute to the stability of things where you are the harbinger of chaos?

Originally Posted by Lenzilla

There is evidence to support the theory that "right and wrong" are hardwired into us, that from an evolutionary standpoint, a civilization that is evil simply can not procreate and survive. They'd kill each other off. We can argue the validity of this all day long-and I know that can take us down many roads-in fact, I realize that very statement could be used in support of your case (yup, the world is killing itself off these days-but then, isn't there a christian at the helm who has stated publicly that he's doing god's work?). But the fact remains that I still have a well developed sense of morals.

Originally Posted by Lenzilla

Kailuaboy, this is not a direct attack on you, honestly. I have no ill will towards anyone. Religion, in my opinion, gets undue respect. I have no problems with you or your life-I'm quite content to live and let live, but I lash out quickly when "the point of my life" is directly attacked or when my choices are judged by others who don't even know me or what my sense of morality entails. Seldom if ever are atheists afforded the same respect and courtesy. People ask me so often in casual conversation what religion I am-you should see the difference in how they treat me when I tell them. I don't treat people differently based on, really, anything-other than their attitude towards me. Please just realize that because people don't have the same beliefs as you, doesn't mean that they aren't wonderful people. But then I shouldn't have to tell a good Christian that, right?

Originally Posted by kailuaboy

Well, I am not chatholic so I dont do the hail mary thing or wash my hands and stuff like that. I simply believe that Jesus died for our sins, so we dont have to do that, and sacrifice animals anymore.

Originally Posted by Skiy

Good luck when you die, at his point you'll need it. Way to many miracles, mysteries and unexplained events for me not to believe in a spiritual world including more than once a visit from Clarence the ghost at the Broadview in Wichita. Also, the lack of any reason or explanation of the origins of all matter, energy, and time let alone the complexities of basic cell structure. I'm a Christian, but I also believe in a more universal idea that it's most important to believe in a higher power or at least not rule it out such as agnostics. I think people treat you differently when you tell them you are an atheist, because like myself they think atheism is second to devil worshiping, spiritually ugly.

Originally Posted by Skiy

Good luck when you die, at his point you'll need it. Way to many miracles, mysteries and unexplained events for me not to believe in a spiritual world including more than once a visit from Clarence the ghost at the Broadview in Wichita. Also, the lack of any reason or explanation of the origins of all matter, energy, and time let alone the complexities of basic cell structure. I'm a Christian, but I also believe in a more universal idea that it's most important to believe in a higher power or at least not rule it out such as agnostics. I think people treat you differently when you tell them you are an atheist, because like myself they think atheism is second to devil worshiping, spiritually ugly.

Originally Posted by kailuaboy

Well, I am not chatholic so I dont do the hail mary thing or wash my hands and stuff like that. I simply believe that Jesus died for our sins, so we dont have to do that, and sacrifice animals anymore.

As for picking and choosing which laws to live by; I chose to acknowledge that God's law is absolute. However, because of my human/sinful nature, I also acknowledge that I am not perfect and that no one is perfect. I know what you mean about people (of any religious standpoint) who are hypocrites. However, you will never catch me say, you shouldn't do this, and then 5 minutes later do the same thing (either in front of you, or behind close doors). That is one thing I have learned not to do. I cant stand when people do that. LOL... my parents did it alot when I was growing up. Dont drink, dont swear, ect. and they would do the same things right in front of us.

There are some rules/laws that are outdated (Old Testament) that we no longer have to do. God has the authority to change them any time he wants. Yeah, He should have a little disclaimer at the bottom. But, by the grace of God, He sent Jesus to die for our sins. What it seems that you are saying, is that we should feel guilty of sinning all the time. Well, I tell you I dont feel guilty, I feel convicted, embarrassed, and humbled, to know that I am not perfect. I simply pray asking Jesus to forgive me and know that He has, and I continue trying to live my life for Him.

Everyone is given free will and sadly there are a few that claim to be doing Gods will and work and later sin, and sin so bad that it gets into the public eye (child molestation comes to mind, which I believe should be punished very severe, death penelty or life in prison for sure). But, like everyone else, they have to answer for their sins (court) and ask Jesus to forgive them.



I try not to make people feel different for me not believing in their own view (not mine). I have flown with gay people, atheists, different religions, etc. and even Christians. Sure, the subject/topic comes up every now and then, but, I have no ill feelings towards anyone. I joke the same with all of them, and do my job as a professional the same will all of them. My religious views do not get in the way of my job, nor do I try and "convert" anyone to my point of view. I do however (if the subject comes up) let people know my view and what I believe.

I hope I have made my point clear. I tend to ramble at times.

Originally Posted by kailuaboy

There are some rules/laws that are outdated (Old Testament) that we no longer have to do. God has the authority to change them any time he wants. Yeah, He should have a little disclaimer at the bottom. But, by the grace of God, He sent Jesus to die for our sins. What it seems that you are saying, is that we should feel guilty of sinning all the time. Well, I tell you I dont feel guilty, I feel convicted, embarrassed, and humbled, to know that I am not perfect. I simply pray asking Jesus to forgive me and know that He has, and I continue trying to live my life for Him.