Yariv

There are no hindus in Thailand, they're budhists (and some muslims in the south)

It's hard not to agree with Rick about the slamming and the disrespect. It's very immature especially when there are plenty of people posting very interesting and thought provoking ideas here (on both sides) but when someone makes it personal it reduces the level of the debate and frankly I think it's because you don't have anything important to say so I usually skip the rest of the post and read the next. at 28 pages, if we edited out the personal stuff and the irrelevant posts about light slowing down, carbon dating, and the dimensions of Noah's ark, we'd probably be on page 10.

Rick I envy you. I wish I could believe like you as well as go to heaven. I read these posts looking for someone to post something convincing, but no one has so far. I'm not trying to convince any believers that (I think) they are wrong, just to point out what I disagree with in their arguments. All that said, I agree with you that neither "side" should judge the other. I felt that "I pray for you" is condescending, but I'm beginning to see that it is innocent and real.

I believe all religions (including atheism) can coexist. all that's required is for the church to stay out of politics and education. religion is a private relationship between man and god, and any attempt to force it on other people is unacceptable.

but this does not mean we can't debate... logically, not emotionally.

__________________
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http://yariv.homeip.net:81/lia
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tptp

It is futile to make demands of God. God is bigger than you. You can’t say, “show me a miracle” and if one doesn’t appear, use that as evidence that God does not exist.

Celebrity religious leaders speak for me as much as real celebrities – they don’t. Everyone quit using Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, Jerry Falwell, or even Martin Luther King or the Pope as evidence that Christians are bunk. There are weirdos and non-weirdos.

The argument is whether there is a God. Evidence to prove or disprove. There are just as many weirdo Christians out there as there are weirdo non-Christians. And they don’t speak for me. Mariyln Manson will take your money just as much as Benny Hinn, but neither changes my personal opinion for or against God. There are, however, very good at giving the respective groups a bad name.

Freightdog, Why do you still go to Baptist church if the sermons don’t make sense to you? If you are so wise, how foolish of you to continue going to a church that obviously doesn’t spur you on to worship the Lord. You waste your own time. If you spent 15 years coming to the conclusion there is no God, why waste your time with church?

Are your parents a different religion that you? There aren’t “bishops” in Baptist organizations that I’m familiar with.

As far as your tsunami relief and the girl who prayed to her Hindu god, you are absolutely correct to not slam the 6-year-old in the middle of the loss of her family. What Christian would pick that time to do that? People who want to emulate Christ’s love would never engage in your situation’s conclusion! Loosely related, It’s also borderline that the 6-year-old would have enough understanding at all to make a decision for Christ (or Hindu). It’s not impossible, but unlikely that 6-year-old’s are old enough yet to have an in-depth understanding of Jesus or Hindu to draw a decision with accuracy.

Christ is all loving and all kind. Let me re-explain everything because you with your highly-religious background are getting it wrong and I think there may be some confusion among other board readers as to God, Sin, and Judgment.

God created the world as depicted in the book of Genesis. It does not explicitly (word-for-word) say that was 8000 years ago or a million years ago or whatever. According to ages and deaths and events in the Bible (and some events cross-dated with other ancient manuscripts) that is the age of the earth/world as far as can be ascertained. Could 8000 be a wrong figure? I’m open-minded enough to say that it might be wrong. It might be right too! The age of earth argument isn’t a pillar to what I have next:

God created Adam. God created Eve as a helper to Adam. From Adam and Eve the rest of the peoples of the world were created. One day the serpent (the devil) deceived Eve in to breaking the only rule that God had made for Adam and Eve in their Garden of Eden (suggested as the present day area somewhere around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Middle East). God’s explicit rule was not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent fooled Eve in to eating the tree’s fruit and then she gave some to Adam and he ate it too. God found out and punished them as depicted in Gen 3. From that moment on, sin entered the world.

Sin is what separates people from God. God hates sin and sin cannot enter heaven. The human was a perfect creation, even made in the likeness or image of God, but is able to make its own decisions. Because Adam (and Eve) sinned, all of his offspring (or seed of Adam) is dirtied by Adam’s sin. Just like if you dropped a mL of cyanide in a 1000 gal drum of drinking water, all the water would be impure too. Sucks for us, right?

The world grew and people multiplied and wickedness increased. God was upset with the evil in the world and wiped it out with a flood. The only people spared were Noah and his family. The bible says Noah was “righteous” and “found favor in the eyes of the Lord”, but gives no other account on why he was spared. Noah was still sinful because he came from the lineage of Adam.

After the flood God made a covenant with Noah. A covenant is like a contract or promise. In it God will never destroy the world by flood, all of earth’s creatures are given in to the hand’s of man and these animals are food, people are to be fruitful and multiply, man must not eat meat that “still has lifeblood in it… and whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed…” This is the first of many covenants God makes with man. Abraham gets rules from God, Moses gets rules from God (the first ten are called the Ten Commandments), and so forth. All of the covenants are collectively called the Law. The book of Leviticus chronicles a lot of the Law. As long as Jews followed the Law, their sin was pardoned. The Law is something like 248 complicated Cans, 365 complicated Can’ts. All sorts of crazy rules had to be followed. People went to great lengths to follow the Law, memorize the Law, meditate on the Law... The problem is that the Law is too hard. No human can live up to the Law’s requirement. Not Billy Graham, not pink-hair lady on TBN, not me, not gasp! Mother Theresa, not even the pope.

Jesus was born of a virgin birth. This is critical. Joseph’s seed/semen is from the line of Adam. Jesus’ virgin birth lets him enter the earth sin-free. He did a lot of great stuff on earth. Miracles, teachings, preaching… all chronicled by different authors including a Tax Collector and Doctor. (First 4 books of the new testament). Other critical part is that when Jesus was crucified for crimes he didn’t commit (Pontus Pilate didn’t really want him killed, the masses of people did), 2 things happened.

#1 Upon Jesus’ last breath the ground shook, the earth quaked, and the curtain in the Jewish Tabernacle that separates “the holy place” from “the most holy place” was torn in two. This signifies that we don’t need a special priest to talk to God for us. God is available to all on a personal level.

#2 All of the world’s sin – past/present/future was placed on Jesus’s life. His death paid for all sin. This is the new covenant. This was not Jesus’ decision. This was God’s. God gave his only son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish [to hell], but have everlasting life”. Once you’re saved, sin cannot touch you as God will not be able to see you as a sinner anymore. You are as pure and white as snow. Bible says so. Judgment will come and all of us, believers and non-believers are going to have all their sins judged by God. Even if your perfectly sweet grandmother who was Super-Missionary and converted all of China; if at one point in her life let unwholesome talk come out of her mouth, she has sinned. Sin can’t enter heaven. Bible says so. No human has ever been sin-free. The only one that has was Jesus who was really half-man/half-God according to his parents (God & Mary).

Freightdog,
Christians engage in communion to remember the new covenant God made with us. The bible says, “do this in remembrance of me.” Note it doesn’t say, “do this in remembrance of me or you will go to hell.” Communion is an act of worship where people emulate the last meal Christ had with his apostles before he was put to death. The bread symbolizes his body, broken for us. The wine (or more accurately the fruit of the vine) symbolizes the blood sacrifice made by Jesus for us. You are not literally drinking Christ’s blood at communion. You are worshipping the Lord through remembrance of your soul’s purchase price. Hindus on the other hand, really believe Cows are sacred and all their civilization come from them or were helped by their milk. I am not however, a Hindu expert.

Whether you regard communion or cow sanctity stupid, that is only in your eyes. It doesn’t disprove God and Christians are always going to look different from the world until the very end. Following Jesus and following secularism is incompatible.

I disagree with the notion that religion is created to explain the unexplainable. No one “invented” the Bible. The Bible is a record. There wasn’t a desert group with a monolith discovery despite yours or Hollywood’s imagination. The Bible starts with creation, where WE started. To expound on your C-182&native situation, if a spaceship came from the stars and landed on Earth I wouldn’t worship the aliens.

What Christians are shooting bullets over religion? If you want to talk about the pillages of the crusades, that was a dark time, in the dark ages. Most people didn’t know what they were fighting about or what the Bible said because back then, most were illiterate and the Bible was only allowed to be read by the Roman Catholic priests which exploited their position. The Protestant Reformation put the Bible (and along with the printing press) fully into the common man’s hands dislodging the Vatican’s power and discrediting false doctrine including the sale of indulgences. Such wickedness! Don’t allow on man to shape your mind. The Bible is really the only thing you can count on.

The only Christian army I know about is the Salvation Army which helps people. The message of the Bible speaks for itself. Blowing up your body like Muslims does not “further the cause” or convert people. I wish Muslims would get that. There is a BIG difference between the Koran and the Bible too. The Koran teaches Muslims that no one but Muslims will go to their heaven. The Koran says Muslims should “slay infidels”. Infidels are you and me. They want to slay our necks!!!! The Christian God, the real God, the God of the Jews, is about love. God wants no one to perish.

If you are mad at Christianity because you think it is arrogant and not open to others you are misled. Be mad at Satan. Focus your anger against the devil. The devil tricked Eve and led to our downfall. Sin is the devil’s fault, not God’s. God has made it SO EASY to not go to hell. Accept Jesus. Jesus is truth and the way. God wants you so bad that he would send his Son as payment for your sin. How is that condemning? That’s love!

We keep going on and on about being open-minded but sometimes you have to have standards and beliefs. If we were completely open-minded, would we be open-minded to murderers and child molesters as school teachers? Christianity is open to all of the lost out there. No one should perish except those that reject the free gift of salvation. How is that so close minded?

FlyXJTnow

Rick,

I respect your beliefs and posts. I also believe that when I die if there is a God I will be saved. If were are created in his image, as Christians believe, then he put that doubt and non belief in my existence.

__________________
www.factcheck.org

aussieflyboy

Rick,

Let me start by apologising for my tone in these posts. You were right that many people in these 28 pages displayed much disrespect to others, myself included. And for that I'm sorry. I think I let myself get fired up and angry because every time I tried to make people see reason (in my eyes) all I got back was another passage from a book in the bible.

TPTP,

I don't know where to begin to respectfully disagree with what you just said in your last post. I honestly cannot understand why you are so set on your story. I truly think it's just like any collection of fairy tales you'd find in a Hans Christian Anderson book. HOW can you say with a straight face that everybody on earth is the descendant of Noah and his wife? And everybody before him was the descendant of Adam and Eve? It's complete nonsense IMHO. We know today that that breeding that close makes the chances of having mentally and physically handicapped children FAR more likely. It's just a preposterous argument. It makes no sense. Just like saying that the world is 8000 years old or that all the species on earth were herded 2 by 2 onto a boat. None of those stories make sense! People say that the bible is the word of God. It's NOT. It was written by men. Lots of different men added to it over a long period of time.

When I listen to people talking about the world and its evolution in terms of science and religious people talking about the world as being the creation of some supreme being, all I see are two types of people - those who are actually aware of their surroundings and are taking a realistic and objective look at the world around them, and those who have their head stuck firmly in the sand, clinging onto a fairytale explanation of the world which has no basis in reality which has been fed to them since childhood.

Please don't take personal offense to this, I'm not writing this post to inflame anyone or to look down on you. I'm just telling you I don't understand what you're on about.

aussieflyboy

Repeated. Sorry, my internet took a dump so i wrote this too many times

aussieflyboy

repeated

freightdog

Well...having lived in Thailand for more than a year, I can assure you that there are major pockets of Hindu population. They immigrated from India long time ago.

freightdog

Rick,

I appreciate your comments. I too was guilty of being disrespectful in some of my posts and I just took my last post down (it had some direspectful content). I will try to be more civil in the future.

Tptp,

Where do I start? I'll try to answer your questions one by one..

1. Why do I keep going to church if I don't believe God exist?

As I said, I am open minded. Eventhough I do not believe in the idea of God, I am open to the idea if someone can prove it. I listen to both sides (atheists and believers). Also, I support many of the charitable ventures undertaken by the church. I recently went on a medical trip to S. America. It was personally a very rewarding experience.

2. I know that there are no Bishops in Baptist church. I currently attend a neighborhood Baptist Church. However, I grew up in the Anglican Church. (Similar to the Methodist Church in the US). They have Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Moderators and all that stuff. I myself have a degree in theology on the study of religions.

3. You mentioned that Hindus really believe that cows are sacred. However, for the educated Hindu, the cow is just symbolic.

4. I whole-heartedly agree that Christians and Muslims are totally different. The New Testament teachings are based on love, compassion etc whereas the Quran has very violent and intolerant teachings (Any Muslims here...you are free to explain your side..) However you mentioned that the Quran says no one but Muslims will go to heaven. Do you realize that Jesus said that no one will go to heaven except through him as well? So, how can you say that Jesus is right but Quran is wrong?

On a different note, I am absolutely fine with different faiths practicing their own beliefs as long as it does not interfere with my life. That is my problem with Islam. Wherever I have lived in my life, there had been terrorist attacks by Islamic organizations. Fanatic Muslims must get their crap together quick and learn to peacefully co-exist with others. There is no excuse to the fact that 99% of the world terrorist attacks are by Islamic organizations.

5. For me it is very difficult to believe in any organized religion. Christians make big claims on salvation...Muslims talk about 70+ virgins...Hindus claim reincarnation...Buddhist claim path to 'enlightenment' etc. We all cannot be right.

Even though I grew up as a Christian and went to Theological College, I am just not arrogant enough to say that I am the only one who got it right. Just look inside Christianity...there are so many denominations with different views. Some protestant groups belive that Catholics are going to hell. Some denominations believe that there is room for other religions in heaven too... (Jesus did say that there is room for 'other' flock)..other denominations claim that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.

Even Christians do not agree on even the basics of Christianity. To me, I think that religious people are just ordinary people making extra-ordinary claims.

freightdog

I agree with most of the stuff you said. Even I let this debate get too personal. Also, I believe you are 100% correct about religion staying out of education and politics.

freightdog

Tptp,

Let me ask you a question. You say that Bible is the absolute truth. Then why does the Genesis contradict itself regarding creation. In the first part of the Genesis it states that God created all the animals and then made man. In the second chapter, it says that God made man first and animals later to keep the man company. The Bible starts with this huge contradiction. Religious scholars have attempted really hard to give some satisfactory explanation... but no one has any definite answer for this yet. How can Christians slam the evolution theory when the Genesis contradicts itself?

Part 1 in Genesis: God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man (Genesis 1:25-26)

Part 2 in Genesis: Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. (Genesis 2:18-19 )