Yariv

I'm all for tolerance. I hate intolerant people!

sorry bad joke. no one's perfect, not even god.

I don't think I ever ignored anything that was posted here and directed at me. the debate about contradiction ended on page 83 with my post to jetdriver05 who did not respond. I assure you that if you had a convincing argument I would be the first to concede and congratulate you. In fact I would be relieved to learn that god exists. because then I'm no longer surrounded by people who belive a fairytale! I honestly don't mean disrespect by calling it a fairytale. feel free to call my beliefs a fairytale.

Brians, leadmx, I don't get it. luke says joseph and mary went from nazareth to bethlehem for the census and jesus was born there. but matthew says joseph mary and jesus moved from egypt to nazareth... weren't they originally from nazareth? did they make a full circle? then why are we introduced to nazareth by matthew as if for the first time? ("and they came and dwelt in a city called nazareth") and, oh yeah I forgot to mention archeological finds in bethlehem exist from 1200 to 500 bc, and from 600ad and later. apparently, based on physical evidence, bethlehem was deserted between 500bc and 600ce. never mind that an 8 month (or so) pregnant woman would not be riding a donkey for 100 miles just to satisfy the requirement of the census, when in those days only the man was counted in the census. so why the discrepancies?

a possible answer is that jesus and his family were always from nazareth, where he was born, and which he called his 'hometown'. the writers wanted to have him born in bethlehem to fulfill the prophecy about the messiah being from bethlehem (micah). luke and matthew should have got their stories straight first. of course I could be wrong. and that's my point - the bible is so full of possibilities, that it is not a straightforward eyewitness account of god's existence. it can be evidence for anything, if you analyze it enough.

to say that all contradictions (though none exist?) have been debated and straightened out before we were born is overreaching. the Chicago Statement is a document by all the leading heads of all the different churches in the U.S. where they admit that the bible is inerrant and contains "several versions" of many stories, and further explaining that some of this is due to translation, but more importantly it's because the bible was written by man. though guided by god, man is errant. these aren't my words, they're in the document. the claim that the writers were guided by god is, of course, not supported by evidence. but then we're used to that by now.

http://www.sultan.org/articles/biblecon.txt
A List Of Biblical Contradictions
Losing Faith In Faith
Biblical Contradictions

jetdriver05, no need for personal insults.

(mother jokes are ok though.)

Brian, I agree with your statement about tolerance. maybe jetdriver can learn something from you.

your numerous explanations about the nature of time and how that proves god exists sound suspiciously like they're out of one these website
Does God Exist?
Does God Exist II
of course I don't mean you actually got them from these pages, but these are common answers supplied by the church to arm you for our debate.
there are plenty of web site and books whose sole purpose is to give you talking points for just such a debate.

Answers to Alleged Bible Contradictions

your blanket statement that the universe has a beginning because (insert reason here) are amateurish at best. I don't mean this as ridicule at all. the universe could very well be infinite, with variations in temperature. why are there variations in temp on earth? it's been a couple of billion years, it should have stabilized by now... if the universe has an end, what's on the other side of that end? if time began, what happened a second before that? these are very hard things to grasp. in our everyday existence there is no such thing as infinite space or time. but just because we can't grasp them doesn't mean it's not true (just like god). we can't observe them so they're just ideas, without scientific proof, just like god.

but unlike god, infinity of time and space does not contradict physics or reality. you have to admit that it's physically possible that time never began, it always existed, and that the universe has no beginning or end. in math, infinity exists. it's not a defined value so you can't say infinity+1, as you suggested. it simply means that numbers have no beginning and no end. I don't think you'd argue with that. so if numbers, why not space and time? it doesn't contradict physics. by definition, a supernatural force does, however.

__________________
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
http://yariv.homeip.net:81/lia
http://yariv.homeip.net:81/jake

jetdriver05

No problem. How about you tone down your rhetoric about fairy tales, idiot stories, etc. etc.

jetdriver05

You're right Len. I should have said "many" non-believers are intolerant. Again, my point is that believers are stereotyped as being the intolerant ones when in reality many non-believers are intolerant as well. Just review the "tolerant" comments on this thread from the likes of Davinci, aussieflyboy, yariv, etc. (about flying spaghetti monsters, fairy tales, etc). They present their views as fact and anything not in line with their views as inferior. That is quite "intolerant".

FWIW, Len you have been quite respectful and "tolerant" in your posts. I should not have made such a broad generalization. However, it goes BOTH ways.

GOODOLEDAYS1016

I know that the power of God is in the scriptures. That is why I use them. All men know that God exists without a doubt in your mind, and you know just enough to hate Him and suppress every little bit of the truth that you know about Him because you do not want to submit yourself to Him.

There is no proof of athiesm!
There is no proof of evolution!
There is no proof of the flying spagetti monster!
To say such things makes you a liar.

What good would it do if anyone on here decides to believe that God exists? I do not need to defend God. He can and will defend Himself. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in you, for God has shown it to you.
Ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although you knew God, you did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in your own thoughts, and your own foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, you have became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man.
Therefore, God has given you up to uncleanness, in the lusts of your hearts, to dishonor your bodies among yourselves, who exchange the truth of God for the lie, and worship and serv the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason, God gave you up to your vile passions. And even as you do not like to retain God in your knowledge, God gave you over to a debased mind, do these things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, malice, full of envy, murder, strife, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to your parents, untrustworty, unloving, unforgiving, and you who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that you practice these things are deserving of death, not only do the same, but approve of those who practice them.

You are a liar when you denounce Him who created you. And you know it.
I apologize for getting mixed up in this debate, thinking that God needs my help to make you believe.

Lenzilla

Yup, it does go both ways. Just a few pages back someone said atheists should be tattooed with a big red X to identify them. That's some good tolerance right there.

I really do try to be respectful and tolerant. I personally don't believe Yariv thinks he's superior, I believe he's just looking to be proven wrong.

But then you have Goodoledays special brand of manure. I'm sorry, I can't help it. My eyes bleed just trying to skim through his posts. It's just line after line of nothing. A constant bombardment of poop bombs.

__________________
Len Civitano

Lenzilla

I'm a liar and I know it and am deserving of death? I'm no liar, I'm not denying some repressed belief in god. Why can't you accept that I actually believe what I believe. Why can't you get it through your thick skull that we don't all have the same beliefs and that it's OKAY. And my actions here in life hardly warrant death!

Uggh, I'm so sick and tired of you preaching to us about what bad people we are.

You're part of the reason I stopped going to church.

For the love of all that's good, please...

SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..SHUT UP..

I find you to be disgusting, abhorrent, miserable, unkind, unlikeable, intolerant, ignorant, arrogant, presumptuous, hypocritical, and just generally bad.

Why stop at apologizing for getting mixed up in the debate when you have so much more you could feel bad for?

I've found the limit of my tolerance in you.

Have a nice day.

__________________
Len Civitano

FlyXJTnow

God can defend himself? Wow, I'm still waiting for him to talk. I guess the cat has his tongue.

I believe in spirited debate, but you seriously need some psychiatric help. I'm glad you no longer fly here because I would refuse a trip if you started with all the nonsense you spewed recently.

__________________
www.factcheck.org

BrianS

Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth and moved to Bethlehem. They settled there for a little when an angel told them to get out of town, so they went to Egypt. When Herod died the angel told them it was OK to go back to Israel so they came back to Nazareth. It seems clear cut to me.

As for Mary making the trip at 8 months pregnant, where does the scripture say this? Mary could have left Nazareth just a few months pregnant. It's assumed they arrived the night Mary gave birth since there was no room in the inn. Maybe they had a place to stay in Bethlehem for months, but the night Mary gave birth there wasn't room in the inn. Having a corner of an inn to sleep in and room enough to give birth are very different things.

Mary was betrothed to Joseph and pregnant. A betrothal in Israel was the same as marriage when it comes to fidelity. Becoming pregnant in a betrothal but outside of marriage could be punished by being stoned to death. This is just my speculation, but I doubt Mary wanted to be left alone in her small home town in this condition. I also doubt that Joseph wanted her to be left alone knowing the town had a legal right to stone her. It could also be that their intention was to move to Bethlehem and settle down there rather than just go there for the census. I believe Luke's account that there was a census, but life has ways of presenting more than one reason to move.


If the writers were not guided by God, then how do we have so many great prophecies, some fulfilled and some seemingly close to fulfillment? Only God knows the future and can predict with 100% accuracy. As for statements from church "heads", be careful who you listen to. Many churches will acknowledge that we are in the "last days". Scripture says in the last days there will be a great "falling away" from the faith. Jesus said when He returns He would be surprised to find any faithful remaining. If the people who claim to be church "heads" will claim we are in the last days, doesn't that also logically open themselves up to be called the church leaders of the "falling away"?


I'm a commuter and have lots of time to read. Some of my favorite authors are Chuck Smith, A.W. Tozer, J. Vernon McGee, Norman Geisler, John Ankerberg, Chuck Missler, C.S. Lewis, Dave Hunt, and William MacDonald. In the car I listen to teachings I download off the internet from some of those authors plus Wayne Grudem. I also go to a church that teaches the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. Most important though, every morning I get up 15 minutes early and prayerfully read a few chapters of scripture. You can read the complete Bible once every year if you do that.

preludespeeder

You sir are the reason atheist continue grow stronger and stronger every day. You have no respect for other peoples beliefs. You are trying to sell us a fairy tale that God will cause harm on us because we do not believe but in his great book it states he loves us all. For the believers on here this person is the reason I have no respect for religion. These people try to use scare tactics and fear to recruit more people into their money pit obsessions. ( a lot like the republican propaganda machine) Religion today is nothing about moral values or doing good for society, it is a scam by people to rob the weak minded individuals of their hard earned money. I enjoy the debate with brians and others on here, you have my respect even though we differ on views. Goodoledays, you will one day meet your beliefs and one of us will be correct and the my belief is you will be wrong.

__________________
"So, you may think you're going to blow me away with your amazing show of rhetoric, but believe me, I have seen it before, and you're wrong. The thing that you're about to write is not only wrong, but transparently, stupidly, embarrassingly wrong, so wrong that it makes me wince inwardly with shame at the fact that you're a member of the same human race that I am"

Anonymous

preludespeeder

If you can observe his acts today and now, why are we debating his existence. If there was observable things of God existing we should all be privy to it. Or are these observable facts things you have in your head but there is no real evidence of it. I understand you do not respect science, the problem is science is not looking for your respect it is looking for your critique and waits for someone who disagrees to find new evidence and show the real answer to the problem.

It is not a debatle fact that the universe is at least 13,000,000,000 years old. Here is some information to prove that.

"The age of the Universe can also be estimated from a cosmological model based on the Hubble constant and the densities of matter and dark energy. This model-based age is currently 13.7 +/- 0.2 Gyr."

Age of the Universe

In the written word of God aka the bible, even wacko Goodoledays has said that hebrews have man as old as 5780 years ago. In the bible it states that god created the world in 7 days. To me this is a huge whole in the bible. It does answer what is easily shown true in science using many many ways to prove the same solution to an answer.

If god is not made of matter or is not part of this universe how does he matter then. You expect science to prove its theories using evidence and reason, you would disregard science because of a lack or flaw in its findings. But when you state your argument you will not answer or show how or where God came from or anything to his respect. You simply say he is so therefor you must believe. I say you need to prove that he even is so we can debate the if.

__________________
"So, you may think you're going to blow me away with your amazing show of rhetoric, but believe me, I have seen it before, and you're wrong. The thing that you're about to write is not only wrong, but transparently, stupidly, embarrassingly wrong, so wrong that it makes me wince inwardly with shame at the fact that you're a member of the same human race that I am"

Anonymous