BrianS

The people I mentioned like Josephus are well known and accepted historians that were not ever Christians. You won't find a contemporary historian that doesn't count Josephus a historian. Reread my post and you will see those I mentioned were not Christians.


Could you clarify what you're asking here? Are you making a statement regarding my quote from the gospel of Thomas, which is not part of scripture? Are you saying that statement is fine and should be included in scripture? Please let me know what you're questioning here.


There have been many new writings as well as evidence. There just has been nothing added to scripture. Many prophecies have been fulfilled and recorded since the scriptures were written. I would consider these to be both writings and evidence. Before 1948 many people laughed at Bible scholars who actually believed Israel would become a nation again in a single day as scripture predicted. Nobody's laughing at that one anymore and I'd say it's good evidence for scripture.


I know people pray to get closer to God. I spend time in prayer with people at church and listen to their prayers. Praying for health is scriptural, but the means God established in scripture is for a person with a health problem to ask for the prayers of others for healing. God many times does not answer those prayers. Even the apostle Paul wrote about how God's strength was made perfect in Paul's weakness over a physical problem. Scripture teaches us to delight ourselves in the things of God and He will give us the desires of our heart. Some people twist this and only consider the part where God will give us the desires of our heart. That's missing the point. The point is when our hearts are for the things of God, when we find joy in doing God's work, only then God will give us the desires of our heart. If a person has really met the condition of that statement they won't be praying for a job, or money, or anything physical for themselves. Every Christian falls short of God's standard here to some measure.

If you'd like to read a biography of a guy who got this right look up George Mueller. The guy kept a journal and it has over 25,000 accounts of answered prayer, many of which are nothing short of a miracle. His prayers were not for his comfort, though. He started and ran orphanages. One example of answered prayer was a time when they ran out of money and had no food for the children. George said to tell no one and have the children seated and the table set for dinner. They began their prayers as usual thanking God for the food they were about to eat. At that time people came by who brought food and explained they had a strong feeling that God wanted them to bring food by. When asked how he accomplished so much with so little George replied that he trusted God to fulfill the promises He made in scripture. There are examples of people who only pray to "Become a Better You", but there are people who know God's Word and pray according to His will.


One great part of this country is that you can say things like that on a public forum like this and not wind up in jail. You can have an opinion on religion and even practice your belief and not be killed. You think we are last place in educational standards? How about many of the Muslim countries where women aren't even allowed an education? You think they are above us? Have you been to other countries for any length of time? My church is involved with humanitarian aid in many countries and I wouldn't count any of them as greater than the United States.

Fats Schindee

(I know most religious people on here are pretty normal for the most part, so this isn't directed at you, but...) Religion can rot your brain! Just read this article about two wackos who let a 90 year old woman decompose in their bathroom for two months because they thought praying would bring her back to life...

WISCONSIN STATE JOURNAL

Taken from the article:

Lewis said she had been helping Middlesworth put on an undergarment when she passed out in her arms and she had left her propped on the toilet after Bushey, whom she referred to as her "superior," said to leave her on the toilet and pray.

Lewis told the deputy that "God told her Alvina would come back to life if she prayed hard enough." Bushey told the deputy that "Lewis was obedient and served the Lord just as she should."

The 12-year-old boy later told investigators that after Middlesworth died, Bushey told him her appearance "was the result of demons attempting to make it appear that Alvina would not come back to life." The boy also reportedly said that Bushey told him that if Middlesworth's death was discovered, he and his sister would have to go to public school and get jobs because the woman, whom the boy referred to as his "grandmother," was paying the bills.


How'd that Cypress Hill song go? Oh yeah, "Insane in the membrane... crazy insane, got no brain..."

__________________
"And if you say to me tomorrow,
Oh what fun it all would be,
Then what's to stop us, pretty baby,
But what is and what should never be."

-Led Zeppelin

BrianS

When you copied part of that story you left out a few key quotes. Here they are so that people will get the full effect of the story:

Oleson declined to call the church a cult but said "I guess in my mind I don't know of any faith that sanctioned his teachings."

Bushey had been living in the area about 11 years, Oleson said, did not have outside employment, and had built a chapel on the back of his home

"It was always a church, if you want to call it that," he said of Bushey's chapel.

He said investigators are trying to determine if the other two were defrauding Middlesworth and that future charges against the two are "a very real possibility." He said there is evidence that the woman was providing financial support to the church and to Lewis and her family.


So it appears that this guy who has no job builds a "chapel" on his property and calls himself a church. No known church or denomination has ordained or approved of this guy. The people in the area know it's not a real church. Then best of all, the real reason the death was not reported and the body buried was said by the police to be because the dead woman was financially supporting this guy. The idea of praying for the woman to be brought back to life was just a cover story for fraud. You can even see that in the 12 year old's testimony about needing to get jobs if the death was discovered. Face it, this is a story of greed and not religion. Don't get me wrong though, many people today and in the past have used religion for their own greed.

davinci

i don't know how to say this without coming across as flame, but I believe most religion is based on greed.

I personally don't understand BILLION dollar churchs and ministers that get paid more than rock stars.

didn't Jesus say, give away your things and follow me...or something like that?

hipocracy and greed are hallmarks of religion.

there is also religion that helps and is beneficial to society; I'm certain of that as well. I think most however is just show business.

TheBills

Thats quite a statement there. Do you know anything about how much the average pastor makes? Its kind of like teachers, you dont get into the business to make millions. Religion helps with greed if anything.

BrianS

You're preaching to the choir. I think many Christians agree with you on this. There is a big push now for ministries to open their books and show what ministry pay rates are. Some are voluntarily doing that. Some are not. The one place where a highly paid minister might be justified is those who earn their money based on book sales. I'm not a Rick Warren fan as I disagree with many of his ideas, but the guy made a lot of money on his books and gave back every penny he was ever paid by the church. You have to respect that.

The quote from Jesus you refer to is regarding a rich young ruler who came to him asking what he needed to do to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus told him what the scripture said and the ruler replied he had done that since his youth. Jesus then replied he lacked one thing and told him to sell everything he had, give to the poor, and come follow Him. The ruler went away sad because he had many great things that he didn't want to give up. The interpretation is that Jesus wasn't against the man's riches, except it was keeping the ruler from following Him. I have some confidence in that interpretation because many other rich people followed Jesus and He never told them to sell everything to follow Him. Zacchaeus was a wealthy tax collector who Jesus ate with and claimed salvation had come to. Jesus never told Zacchaeus to sell everything. In fact, on his own Zacchaeus offered half of everything he had for the poor. When he did this Jesus didn't stop him and say he needed to give it all. Based on the right interpretation we can make the proper application and say that Jesus requires us to give up anything and everything that keeps us from following Him. If you're money and things don't prevent you from following Jesus then you don't have to get rid of them. Some people are actually better able to serve God with their things and money.

BAZ

Can't stand the Red Wings! But dang they are good!

preludespeeder

You either hate or love them. When the stars are not playing the wings I always want them to win. A lot of good players on that team.

__________________
"So, you may think you're going to blow me away with your amazing show of rhetoric, but believe me, I have seen it before, and you're wrong. The thing that you're about to write is not only wrong, but transparently, stupidly, embarrassingly wrong, so wrong that it makes me wince inwardly with shame at the fact that you're a member of the same human race that I am"

Anonymous

preludespeeder

Wow, you put a claim out there that carbon dating is wrong yet you have nothing to back up your claim. A link to the scientist that shows how carbon dating methods are wrong. I gave links proving how carbon dating works. If you can not provide proof or a link to show where you get your ideas from I consider that meaningless words that you are babbling.

__________________
"So, you may think you're going to blow me away with your amazing show of rhetoric, but believe me, I have seen it before, and you're wrong. The thing that you're about to write is not only wrong, but transparently, stupidly, embarrassingly wrong, so wrong that it makes me wince inwardly with shame at the fact that you're a member of the same human race that I am"

Anonymous

preludespeeder

There is no proof that scripture was fulfilled by god. This a pure random act of chance. Are you trying to safe there was divine intervention. You have to be kidding me. I say there was divine intervention from the spaghetti monster that is causing me to lose my job. Prove me wrong.


Well since you have not proven that god even exist your whole arguement is flawed in its thinking. Prove he even exist then we can discuss if this mythological being is intervening in our world. Refer to above discussion if you are going to try and say prayers are answered. Maybe you should read about a few studies that have happened in the last few years that prove that prayer has no effect on the health of people or on their ablility to provide for someone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html


It is widely known that our education system when compared to other countries is losing every year. When you compare say china to our country in what they teach year to year they are by far ahead of us with what and how they teach. Read the news sometime, when tech companies have to bring in outside people from India, china, and other "third world" countries to do the jobs that Americans can not do, it shows that we have an educational gap in this country.

As for the freedoms of this country, I am very happy that we have those freedoms, but Christianity and a lot of its supporters are trying to press their views on to this country and feel that we need a national religion. You think I am wrong, abortion, gay marriage, divorce, evolution, and many other things are examples of religion not keeping to themselves. This country was found on the ideas of everyone is equal, everyone can make their own informed decisions, and we do not need a fundamental religious group telling us how to live our lives.

__________________
"So, you may think you're going to blow me away with your amazing show of rhetoric, but believe me, I have seen it before, and you're wrong. The thing that you're about to write is not only wrong, but transparently, stupidly, embarrassingly wrong, so wrong that it makes me wince inwardly with shame at the fact that you're a member of the same human race that I am"

Anonymous