Lenzilla

That's right, and science isn't necessarily saying god doesn't exist...we just eliminate theories that are presented for the existence of god, one at a time, until someone is forced to come up with the "fruit/bodypart" argument on you tube (or whichever site that was). Most of us are open minded to the idea that god may exist, we just don't see any irrefutable proof of it. Which brings us to........


Look back through these posts-or do the research for yourself. The bible is fraught with contradictions from book to book. So why should I believe in it? Does that not make the bible poor evidence?



Who decided them to be trustworthy? Many consider me trustworthy, but to others I am "one step above a homosexual or devil worshiper." Why should I trust "them"? Because I'm told from a very early age to do so?


I don't think most of us misunderstand faith at all. I personally don't believe faith is belief without reason. I just happen to think the reasoning is severely flawed. If anything, people misunderstand atheists. As stated earlier, most of us (myself included), are open to the idea that god exists (I'm willing to bet that includes Yariv). We have not yet been given sufficient reason to believe it-and with each passing day it seems less and less likely to occur.

I'm glad you have your faith. I take no issue with it. Your argument here just doesn't do much to sway anyone or shed any more light on this topic (assuming that was your goal).

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Len Civitano

Yariv

I do think that faith is belief without proof.

BrianS, you compare you posting here to the existence of god, in terms of evidence. then you say that your post here is written evidence that you posted here, and the bible is written evidence of god's existence... I don't think I even need to explain how flawed that is.

Scientist often base some of their information in forming theories on the work of other scientist. they cite the original author's work as a source, taking the risk that if the source's theory is disproved by new evidence, their new thoery will also be disproved since it's based on it. The only evidence for god's existence is the bible, which cites god as a source... can you see how this is an infinite loop? who came first, the chicken, or the egg? god exists because the bible says so, and the bible was written by god? what if I wrote a book that says the all knowing all powerful spaghetti monster exists, and claim it was dictated by the spaghetti monster? do I then have written proof? is there such a thing as written proof?

my argument in the previous page is not flawed, or at least not as flawed as the chicken-and-egg logic of the bible being both the word of god, and proof of god's existence. if you are using our (modern western civilization) system of logic (and obviously you are) then you always assume you DON'T know something, until you can learn it. innocent until proven guilty. no theories without evidence. for me to say that we cannot know anything, is indeed a theory and can be disproven if you find something that we can JUST know for sure without the need for the scientific process of hypothesis-evidence-theory. I don't think you can find such an example, give it a try. remember, it has to be something that doesn't have any evidence, and is OBVIOUSLY TRUE. if you there is such a thing and I'm not aware of it, then either I'm mentally challenged, or it doesn't meet the requirement of being OBVIOUS. if it's not obvious, it requires evidence... see the loop?

every rule has an exception, including the rule that says that every rule has an exception... the exception to this rule, is the rule itself.

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http://yariv.homeip.net:81/lia
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BrianS

No such comparison was made. I said my post on here was evidence that I have posted on here thus I cannot say I've never posted here, which was a reference to what a self defeating argument would be. The written evidence of the existence of God is much different than what you are giving it credit for. Remember, I said it includes testimony from so many different people over such a long period who are in complete agreement without any intereaction between them. To say that the Bible is circular reasoning assumes it was written by one person or multiple people referring to each other's work. This isn't the case. If 40 authors write 66 books over 1500 years on 4 continents in 3 languages and come up with the same ideas without consulting each other, how can it be circular reasoning? Let's not stop at just the Bible, however. There are resources outside of scripture that give testimony of the life, miracles, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Many of these resources are from Jewish and Roman historians who were working against the Christians and yet still recorded these events in complete harmony with the Biblical accounts. If these historians were working against the Christians how can you include them in circular reasoning?



Do you exist? There is something that is obviosly true, but cannot be scientifically proven anymore than God. Before you are too quick to offer proofs for your existence, make sure you give me a proof that cannot be made for God as well.


Now let's talk about these supposed contradictions in the Bible. I assure you I've read the posts on this thread which you can somewhat verify by looking at my posting history. I have seen no such contradictions expressed here. Would you give me an example of some of these alleged contradictions?

Lenzilla

I thought the following link had been posted here somewhere before (or one similar). If not, my apologies.

A List Of Biblical Contradictions

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Len Civitano

Mitch

I cannot believe I'm posting on the God thread.

What sort of bullsh*t argument are you trying to make with this one?

I'll vouch for his existence. I got my haircut right before him one day in Jersey. (I have yet to precede god to the barber's chair.) I'm sure he can take a picture of himself as well, on demand, mind you. A copy of his birth certificate with his parents names? How about meeting him in the terminal?

Len is able to be observed by anyone that occupies a nearby space, thereby being scientifically proven to exist. God? Not so much.

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Left Coast

I tried to buy beer this morning for a Mother's Day bar b q, and was DENIED because it wasn't 1:00 yet.

WTF! That's the kind of crap I hate. Some religious bunghole made some rule that I can't drink in the morning unless I bought my beer the day before.

I also hate when an atheist complains about saying God in something, because seriously, I could care less. But at least I don't have to make two fricken trips to the store because some atheist imposed some B.S. behavior law on me.

Lenzilla

You got some problem with the amount of space I occupy? It's glandular, I tell ya.

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Len Civitano

Mitch

Ha. No worries Len, you're just fine.

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BrianS

So your scientific evidence that Yariv exists is that you've seen him? Hundreds of people testified that they saw a resurrected Jesus. Peter sat down and ate a fish with him. Paul ran into Jesus on the road to Damascus. What is a birth certificate but a written testimony from people? Remember I said to be careful about what kinds of proof you use.

BrianS

Answers to a few:

God is good to all, or just a few:
Goodness requires justice. Does a judge cease to be good when he sentences a criminal to prison or even death?

War, or peace:
Sometimes the path to peace is war. Should the United States have let Hitler continue in the name of peace? Peace came through war with Hitler.

Who is the father of Joseph:
Anyone who's married can understand how it's possible to have two fathers. These are excerpts of two different geneologies, one through Joseph as a legal heir and one through Mary as a physical descendent. Remember that Jesus was born physically from Mary, but not from Joseph. Joseph would be a legal father, though. Matthew was interested in showing Jesus rightful claim to the throne of Israel and gave a geneology from Joseph as a legal heir. Luke was a physician and thus gave a physical geneology of Jesus through Mary. The link to Joseph in Luke's account is as an in-law.

Who was at the empty tomb:
If I say that I was in the crewroom talking to Joe that doesn't necessarily mean Joe was the only person there. I could be talking to three people but just mentioned Joe. If Joe mentions the same conversation but names everyone it doesn't contradict my account.


OK these are perfectly natural explanations for 4 supposed contradictions. Only one of those requires any special knowledge to answer. I'll bet a grade school student could come up with the answers to 3 of those contradictions. Why is it that people use common sense in reading everything but the Bible?