There is no god. - Page 10

Ocean · 10-16-2006, 02:46 PM

Have you read it?

HD · 10-16-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael logan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whydoitry

God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

Dont wait until you draw your last breath to be proven wrong.

Without Faith and Hope, the proof, one way or the other, of this whole discussion, becomes apparent after our last breath.

j3tDr1v3r · 10-16-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travelair

Radio carbon dating? It assumes an unchanging environment. It does not take into account ice ages or other climatological changes which we know occured. The Bible speaks matter of factly of people living to nearly 1000 years in the old testament. To this day, gerentologists cannot answer the question of why we grow old and die but they think it has to do with UV radiation. What if the atmosphere as we see it today has not always been the way it is. Noah's flood required more water than was in the sea or under the earth in springs. To happen, nearly three feet of water (when condensed) would have to have come from the atmosphere. Today, if you condensed all the water vapor in our atmosphere, it would amount to six inches or so.

You nearly unravel your entire argument with this sentence. Your basically saying it's "scientifically impossible" to create enough water for Noah. So, what's more believable... that an invisible man in the sky told a random guy on the earth to build a boat large enough to carry 2 of EVERY species of life that exists today, or has ever existed (because after all evolution is made up right, so there's NO way that all the species of bird came from a few common ancestors) So, birds alone, this Noah dude had like 30,000 birds on this boat! (roughly 10-12,000 species today, plus all extinct species) That's BIRDS alone. Not to mention different species of hippos, giraffes, dogs, cats, elephants, etc. Or is it more believable that this entire story is made up? A falsehood to control historical civilizations by envoking fear in it's masses? Sorry, but I'll follow the path that can show me, to my face, their claims.

Travelair · 10-16-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyXJTnow

To do that you have to assume the bible is true. It's circular logic to go down that road. Example of what I mean: "How do I know the bible is true because it was inspired by God. How do I know God is real, because the bible says so."

Doesn't really prove much in my opinion.

The Jewish Pharasees (church leaders) tried very hard to dismiss the Gospel of Christ. In the end, there were too many first hand eye witnesses for the teachings to be dismissed. If it were not true, it would have been laughed at and disregarded by the people who were still alive to have seen it first hand. Also, no-one dies for a known lie. Either Jesus was crazy, a liar, or He was who He said He was. He was not a liar because he was given many chances to come clean, still he chose death.

Was he crazy? It wouldn't appear so on the surface. Do crazy people keep hectic travel schedules and dispense great moral truthes to large audiences? Is his behavior consistent with a psycological condition? What about all the people he convinced? Are they crazy too? Enough to die for their new found beliefs (many did)?

Can the Bible be trusted? There are other writings from the period which can be trusted, Josephus comes to mind. He was an historian and actually named Jesus and mentioned His ministry in his account of Herod's empire.

At some point, it requires faith. So does everything in life. Steve, to believe that Express Jet will be just fine without Continental and this will be the last flying job you ever have also requires faith.

mckpickle · 10-16-2006, 03:19 PM

[quote="Travelair"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyXJTnow

Steve, to believe that Express Jet will be just fine without Continental and this will be the last flying job you ever have also requires faith.

Ah :wink: Touche! :lol:

10-16-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travelair

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whydoitry

God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

If life is just a random occurance, then why can't scientists, working in ideal conditions, create life? Even simple life? They can modify DNA and genetically engineer but they are incapable of creating even a simple cell organism?.

I'm afraid you missed the boat. Scientists have and still do create life in the laboratory and there are hundreds of patents attesting to such.

Furthermore, scientists have created each and every amino acid known to exist in the DNA chain structurefrom the primordial soup theory.

Some organisms that come to mind are petroleum eating microbes for cleaning oil spills and sub atomic "switches" used in super conducting environments that are actually living organism that eat atoms to create polarity (which are the precursers to genuine artificial intelligence).

As another post said, it would seem the religiously clouded mind conveniently overlooks the truth in order to protect their untruths.

I seems to me when the argument for god and the validity of "religion" runs out of steam, the faithful aways revert to the argument of "faith" as their last ditch effort to support their position.

Imagine if you applied the same concept to flying. This statement is probably said very often by the traveling public:

"I have faith that the airplane will fly"

when in fact "faith" has nothing to do with it. An uneducated flyer who can't comprehend physics might argue to the end that "faith" made the plane fly when most of us would argue that "faith" is irrelevent because we have a bigger picture.

"Faith", when it comes down to it, is completely insupportable. A more enightened person might call "faith" luck and someone heavily schooled in science might call it "chaos theory".

In the end, "faith" is in the eye of the beholder while the reality of science is there to see.

Just my opinion FWIW. I've noticed nobody arguing the side of faith and religion has taken the opportunity to post to the interesting points in scab hater's posts.

His/Her posts pose some serious questions to the "other" side and it woud appear that the "faith" proponenents have quietly skated around the concepts as they usually do when challenged with providing even the tiniest bit of TANGIBLE proof or non "faith" based arguments.

I look forward to some responses to scab hater from "FAITH'S" soldiers as surely you won't let someone poke such large hole's in your beliefs without a reasonable response.

[/code]

Travelair · 10-16-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j3tDr1v3r

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travelair

Radio carbon dating? It assumes an unchanging environment. It does not take into account ice ages or other climatological changes which we know occured. The Bible speaks matter of factly of people living to nearly 1000 years in the old testament. To this day, gerentologists cannot answer the question of why we grow old and die but they think it has to do with UV radiation. What if the atmosphere as we see it today has not always been the way it is. Noah's flood required more water than was in the sea or under the earth in springs. To happen, nearly three feet of water (when condensed) would have to have come from the atmosphere. Today, if you condensed all the water vapor in our atmosphere, it would amount to six inches or so.

You nearly unravel your entire argument with this sentence. Your basically saying it's "scientifically impossible" to create enough water for Noah. So, what's more believable... that an invisible man in the sky told a random guy on the earth to build a boat large enough to carry 2 of EVERY species of life that exists today, or has ever existed (because after all evolution is made up right, so there's NO way that all the species of bird came from a few common ancestors) So, birds alone, this Noah dude had like 30,000 birds on this boat! (roughly 10-12,000 species today, plus all extinct species) That's BIRDS alone. Not to mention different species of hippos, giraffes, dogs, cats, elephants, etc. Or is it more believable that this entire story is made up? A falsehood to control historical civilizations by envoking fear in it's masses? Sorry, but I'll follow the path that can show me, to my face, their claims.

Genesis actually says (and this is why it's important to read it for yourself) that "like begets like". This is hard to interpret but I believe it allows for some degree of evolution. Sparrows evolving into bluebirds is very different from snails evolving into monkeys though. There are two distinct views on the seven days of creation: Since Genesis does not specify the length of the days, some believe each period of creation could have lasted millions of years. Others, versed in Hebrew translate the meaning of days literally. This difference shouldn't matter to anyone. If it helps you to believe that the Earth is millions of years old, I don't think God would mind. The point is, God created the Earth in an orderly manner, He did not create plants before light for instance.

I'm with you on the "common ancestor" concept, just as long as it's confined to saber tooth rabbits = Bugs Bunny and wild boar = Babe, etc. Monkey to human? I don't think so.

A world with three feet of water vapor in the atmosphere is conceivable. There would have been no thunderstorms and no polar ice. The Earth's tempereature would've been more consistent than it is now. Overall, it would be a pretty nice place to live. When God instructed Noah to build an ark, it had never rained. Crops were irrigated by the morning dew associated with the high humidity. Yes, people thought he was crazy. No, it was not scientifically impossible.

f/o shizzle · 10-16-2006, 03:52 PM

I believe what I believe in. I don't have to prove my point to anyone. Just keep making the world more and more immoral and ungodly. Christians belive in God, Christ, and Salvation. Who is anyone to question it? If you don't believe in it, that's between you and your maker. It WAS a 'non-believer' that started this thread anyway. If you really want to find out all these answers to these questions, I suggest you go to a local church, or pick up a Bible.

Red Swingline · 10-16-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisu

Just my opinion FWIW. I've noticed nobody arguing the side of faith and religion has taken the opportunity to post to the interesting points in scab hater's posts.

His/Her posts pose some serious questions to the "other" side and it woud appear that the "faith" proponenents have quietly skated around the concepts as they usually do when challenged with providing even the tiniest bit of TANGIBLE proof or non "faith" based arguments.

I look forward to some responses to scab hater from "FAITH'S" soldiers as surely you won't let someone poke such large hole's in your beliefs without a reasonable response.

Much like every CA vs FO or uniform thread, there is no resolution to this argument. Unlike both of those threads, there's more at stake here. I'd be happy to sit and have a face to face discussion with anyone willing to talk - but tossing quips back and forth on random internet message boards does not a discussion make. That being said, I'm still a sucker for the occassional quip. :lol:

One definition of faith says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

# Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

Now, while some may glom onto the "no logic" part of that definition as a judgement against religion, taken as a whole, faith implies that total and absolute proof is not possible. If you could get in your car and drive to a building, walk in and talk to God - an actual, physical entity you could see with your eyes and touch with your hands - then faith would not be necessary.

Let's look at the other side of things. We also cannot go back in time and witness the big bang. All we can do is look at the universe we currently see and do our best to assemble some viable theories as to how it got here. So, to believe the big bang happened requires... you guessed it, faith.

In fact, one may argue that to be an atheist requires more and stronger faith than any other belief system. Anyone can have some ephemeral and cloudy belief that something may be out there guiding the universe (it doesn't have to just be the Judeo/Christian God). But, it takes incredible faith to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING out there and everything is coincidence.

Outside of "42", there is no "ANSWER":wink:. Everytime we zoom in a little closer, we find something smaller. It takes faith to believe that there is a starting point regardless of whether one believes that starting point to be God, or a singularity.

Now, are religion and science mutually exclusive? Absolutely not. I personally believe God gave us the ability to explore and learn. He created the universe and the laws by which it is governed. Would He then be bound by His own creation? Of course not. Are we capable of learning - to an extent - how His creation works. Yes. Maybe the big bang was God snapping His fingers, and the "days" of Genesis were eons long. Maybe God set everything in place before starting the pendulum that is the laws of time and space. Who knows?

A common analogy is that of the watch. If you were walking along a beach and saw a watch lying in the sand - would you assume that over the millenia the sun and wind and rain, sand and ocean slowly combined to form the tiny device with gears and springs purely by accident? Or, would you assume there was a watchmaker? I contend that we and the universe are far more complex than any watch.

In the end, one is wrong and one is right. For your sake, I hope you're right.

j3tDr1v3r · 10-16-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f/o shizzle

If you really want to find out all these answers to these questions, I suggest you go to a local church, or pick up a Bible.

If you read my first post in this thread, I did, and have. I was born, raised, baptized, and was even an altar boy in the Roman Catholic church. I have, for many various personal reason, changed my views on the subject over time, and now fall on the other side of the fence. I have read the bible, and also read my 5th grade science book. Sorry, but PERSONALLY, I'll go with the one I can PROVE (and the one that doesn't turn it's back on me in times of need.)