k.a.m.

I'm sure you guys will have this all figured out after another 9 pages.

Assmonkey

What I want to know is how can you people even debate this subject? There really is no question about the existance of God, the question is which of our religions is correct about God. We really know that Jesus died for our sins and we should all show our appreciation for his sacrafice. If others choose to disagree that is their prerogative and we should accept and pray for them. Especially those that don't accept our Lord and savior.

Yariv

I can't believe someone managed to P!ss off Rick! the nicest guy you'll ever meet. That in itself is proof that anything is possible.

if this post is too long for you, just read the last paragraphs (the bold text)




It is human nature to be curious and try to find an answer to every question. An unresolved question is a source of tension that needs to be relieved. If an answer is not available, it is made up, until a better one becomes available. This relieves the tension. Without this relief, life would be too stressful. (it is now safe to tell those of you that went thru my ground schools that sometimes I answered UNIMPORTANT questions I didn't know the answer to by making it up... you didn't know the difference, and your stress was relieved.)

There are many questions that don't have a good answer. For example why did my uncle die of cancer at age 44? what is the cause of lightning? why did the plant I worked at for 40 years close and I was fired 2 years before retirement, and now I'm left with nothing? How is it that we are creatures that need air, water, and food and we live on the only planet in the universe that has all three? (or any of the three, for that matter) Why did my neighbor lose his 6-month old daughter to a treatable liver condition?

As you can see, some of these questions were initially a mystery, until science solved them. in old times, people thought lightning is a signal from "god", because they didn't have a better explanation (same with floods, disease, earthquakes, and other biblical stories). Today we know that the reason we live on a planet that can support us is that we evolved to use the available resources (if there was only helium instead of oxygen, we would be breathing helium... imagine our voices.. and that O2 mask would be useless) some questions have no answer, so relief is found in the only available (if made up) answer - a higher power: It is "god"s will, The answer to everything. it sure makes life easy, takes away the responsibility of coming up with answers, and the stress of having unanswered questions.

And who made up this answer? whoever wrote the bible - a "ground instructor" of his time: someone that knew that it is more important to relieve the need for answers, than to have correct answers. It is the only way to have order in society, and more importantly, the writer used the power of the invisible god to enstill morals in society! This is genious!

And this WORKS! so what's the problem?

If you believe, you're life is complete and you're fulfilled. In that case you shouldn't have any need to convince anyone to believe like you. To each their own, as Rick SUAVE said. (He misspelled it - obviously the will of god.)

if you don't believe, that's ok! maybe you don't need to. or maybe you never had anything so bad happen in your life that had no answer to the question "why." So far you have the answer to everything, including why the sky is blue and how a 50000 pound piece of metal gets off the ground. But one day there will be a question you can't answer (probably when you exceed 25 years of age... or have an oral with Cashmerick!) This doesn't mean you'll start believing in "god", but your perfectly reasonable, explainable, miracle-less world will cease to exist: there ARE unasnwered questions! just let it be. maybe my uncle died because one of the trillions of molecules in the DNA of one of his billions of cells made a mistake while replicating itself, as it did without error trillions of billions of times in his 44 years. or maybe it was just his time to go back to his creator. don't know. and I don't care how much of an atheist your are, I bet there was at least one time in your life (probably just before your oral with cashmerick) that you looked up to the sky and thought "please (insert god here), I need your help just this one time."

The problem starts when people with different beliefs judge others as inferior (an unchristian thing to do) or as "sinners", or as lost souls in need of help. It's a little condescending, in my opinion, especially since you have no proof of your belief system being "better" than mine. And for people with such strong convictions, the only proof offered is a quote of someone else's book or web page or something the minister said.

Another problem is when religion is offered as an alternative to science. Evolution makes perfect sense, except that it doesn't jive with the bible and doesn't require a god. well, almost - we still don't know where the first cell came from or how the universe started - but we WILL answer the cell question EVENTUALLY with science, just like we did lightning and earthquakes, and we WILL eventually accept the fact that the universe didn't start - it was always there. Evolution's not jiving with god is not a good enough reason to reject it and offer creationism as a competing theory. Try it in a court of law some time, and you'll end up in jail: on one hand a system of logic, with cause and effect, theories+evidence=proof. on the other hand, "it's the will of god". not good enough. it's only good enough when there is no answer to a question, not when you don't like the answer.

There's no need to even mention the use of god as an excuse for violence. this was done throughout history by all 3 major religions. The bible and kuran support it, so it is not just a 'misinterpretation' of the religion, but part of it. this is because religion was created by man, not god.

So bottom line, is there a god or not? the answer is there is no answer, and that's ok. (not needing to answer every question is in itself an evolution). Neitzche said "there are no facts, only opinions."

Why would someone who doesn't need god belittle those that found him? why would those who believe try to convince those that don't? in both cases it is because neither side is sure in their position. that little doubt (an unanswered question in itself) needs to be relieved by convincing the other side. if we all agreed that there is no god (or that there is) then that must be the correct answer... right?

(and btw, the batteries don't fall out of the plane when they get hot, the windshield wipers aren't heated, and the answer to "how does a labyrinth seal work" is "very well")

__________________
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
http://yariv.homeip.net:81/lia
http://yariv.homeip.net:81/jake

A.J. Crowley

Dude, that is freaking HILARIOUS! Surely you were being sarcastic and not offering that as real evidence, right? I mean, I'm open-minded; I'm not supporting the atheist's position either... but not only was that not science, it wasn't even rational!

My favorite part is the bit about the universe "running out of hydrogen"! :lol:

__________________
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players (i.e., everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."

Mario Smith

A long, long, time ago there was absolutely nothing. And one day this nothingness exploded resulting in everything we see today.

See, there is no need to resort to anything strange or bizarre (like religion) to explain why we are here. :wink:

Stephan Dupourque

okay all your brilliant philosophers, answer me this.

If you take a step, to get there, you first have to travel half way there. And then half way from there, and then half way from there....how do you ever get there?

MiyamotoMusashi

Ahh, Mario-- Religion is a **** fine thing. It's what people do with it that's usually rotten and warped. I don't get bent out of shape about beliefs, I just get bent out of shape when people use those beliefs as an excuse to behave ignorantly, or treat other people badly. I don't care what your Good Book says, there's no excuse for that.

And is there anything more condescending and vile than when someone says "Oh, you don't agree with my religious beliefs? I'll pray for you!"?

MiyamotoMusashi

Well, it's kind of a silly question, but assuming that you only were able to move half the remaining distance at one time, your movment would be asymptotal, and you'd never get there. The graphed equation for your movment, with x= distance remaining, and y= distance able to be traveled on the next step, would look like this:


But, of course, our steps are more or less evenly spaced, so the graph is a simple line leading to zero everytime. What is all has to do with the existence of god is still a bit vague though...

Stephan Dupourque

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/zeno1.htm

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/zeno3.htm


Not really anything to do with the existence of God, just how philosophy can make an argument about anything and it looks scientifically reasonable until you break it down.

Mario Smith

Moto: What about rotten and vile uses of science? Hitler comes to mind. So do partial birth abortion and the nuclear bomb. You can't just paint religion with that brush.