Quote:
Originally Posted by Yariv
Gabriel12, we're not trying convince anyone, just discussing whether we can prove god exists or prove god doesn't exist. this isn't about faith, it's about proof. by definition faith doesn't require proof (which makes faith illogical). we've defeated pascal's wager (which you refer to) several times by saying that it applies equally to belief in any god or gods, and in aliens, speagetti monsters and santa claus. you're suggesting that not-believing is faith, because it can't be proven. this is acceptable in philosophy, but not in logic. in logic no assumptions can be made unless there is a basis. if we can't prove santa claus doesn't exist, this doesn't mean we have faith in his non-existence. it means logically that we have NO REASON to believe he exists until evidence is shown that suggests or proves his existence.
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So, you aren't trying to convince anyone, including yourself that you are the right ones? Because it seems to me the 100 plus posts isn't just a discussion, but an attempt to bash religions, bash people's faiths, and to convince yourself that your nonbelief in God is the correct one because, according to you, it cannot be proven.
As far as Pascal's wager applying equally to aliens, santa clause, the boogy man, etc. Is there really a comparison of getting Christmas presents from a man in a red suit and going to Heaven or Hell? If you tend to think that these comparisons are about the same, then I think there seems to be something illogical to what reality is for you, but, then again, that is just my personal opinion. As someone has written in the recent posts, (again, I am too lazy to go through all of the pages, so this is just based on recent posts), yes, someone only believing based on pascal's wager doesn't necessarily mean that they have true faith in God, but sometimes, their beginning
wager belief can help them become more knowledgable in their religion, which finding out the facts, can
and usually does, bring them to a more dedicated faith that is no longer founded on a wager, but a true love for God.
The Bible, which from some readers is not proof and others believe, states that Blessed are those who have not seen me and yet believe. Not everyone needs this so-called proof that you seem to need. Even when shown many examples of proof, you won't believe. Is it out of stubborness? Is it out of wanting to not follow another? Don't know...you have your reason.
So, yes, this discussion will probably go on and reach 200 plus pages. Many people will give you examples of what they feel/see as proof, but it won't matter, because anything they say/write will not make a difference in your mind. It will all be bias to you because they are believers....but you seem to not be bias because you don't believe? It seems to me that their are some educated people on here giving you [i]proof[i], but you discount them. It also appears that you and some others would like to blame all world problems on religion, which isn't necessarily the problem but just an outlet of the blame-game. When some people use religion in a negatiive way, would it be the religion's fault or the person that is doing it, or in the cases that some have pointed out, the people themselves at fault? That is like saying that one pilot was doing something that was out of line, so the pilot industry is a sham. Just doesn't make sense, but again, that is my opinion.
Like I mentioned, this will go on and on as a so-called discussion, but what you will notice is that the more detailed information you are given on the proof of God, the more you will find a way to believe in yourself and your belief against it. You seem to be wanting to hear that you are right. So, maybe you just aren't affirmed enough in other areas of your life that you have to come to express forums to make you feel that you have accomplished something...? So, what have you accomplished and where will this, your accomplishment, lead you?